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Science ending only need 29 techs, less than a third of all techs in the game

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2 years ago
Oct 4, 2021, 7:45:13 PM

The image below should be the shortest path to end the game in terms of techs needed. This path only need 29 techs in total, 15 of those are contemporary, representing half the 30 contemporary techs. Otherwise you need 2 ancient techs out of 12, 2 classical techs out of 12, 2 medieval techs out of 10, 1 early modern tech out of 11 and 4 industrial techs out of 17. This mean out of the 92 techs in the game, 63 techs which represent 68% of the techs in the game is not needed to get the science ending. Also this mean less than a third of the techs in the game is needed to get the science ending.


Also notice how similar the tech path is to the shortest one to Mars, with rocket science being the gateway to 3 out of the 5 end techs. Conveniently combustion engine which is on the shorest path to rocket science is also needed to reach exosuit and the last end game tech fusion power have its own tech path that have no prerequest other than being in contemporary.


What do you think about this?

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2 years ago
Oct 4, 2021, 7:48:40 PM
Goodluck wrote:
What do you think about this?

Not sure.

On one hand: This makes it seem like you can get to the end of the technology tree extremely quickly.


On the other hand: Without rushing science through that Science Super Ability in heavy industry cities, It's doubtable this strategy is realistic. Especially in situations where the Science Strategist is under external pressure by other players.

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2 years ago
Oct 4, 2021, 8:00:29 PM

I personally don't think that in and of itself it is an issue since ignoring other issues like this ignoring any military techs. Also you win by fame not by reaching endgame conditions, so the issue of being not hard to end the game I don't think is a huge issue (especially since you are going to have to research more techs because you need era stars anyway). You could argue there is an issue with lack of tech requirements maybe.

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2 years ago
Oct 4, 2021, 9:00:13 PM

I am in favor of the probeelining tech tree.  The costs of later techs do need to be increased even more (to slow down the end game) and techs from long ago/other empires should slowly fill in for free (but not count for stars, so that civs don’t fall too far behind in tech).  That way you still need to cover your economy / defense while going to the end.

Updated 2 years ago.
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2 years ago
Oct 4, 2021, 9:02:08 PM

You can compare it to endless legend in which you need 4 out of 5 era 6 techs but each of them cost a lot compared to other techs and to unlock era 6 you need to research maybe 50% of the techs in the game or something.

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2 years ago
Oct 4, 2021, 10:22:22 PM

Well, you could try to cheese it, but how viable is it ? I mean, you without irrigation and my beloved river tiles, it seems quite... tricky.

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2 years ago
Oct 4, 2021, 10:28:40 PM
Aeram wrote:

Well, you could try to cheese it, but how viable is it ? I mean, you without irrigation and my beloved river tiles, it seems quite... tricky.

I don't know as I focus on what can be done and not about if it is partical or a good/bad idea to do it.

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2 years ago
Nov 29, 2021, 9:01:17 PM

What is worse, we cannot prevent the beelinging in any way as the editor only allows defining optional tech prerequisite  not manditory tech prerequisite. This is a seriouur shortcomming especialy in the contemporary age where many technologies logicaly had more the one tech requirement that needs to be present for it to function.

Updated 2 years ago.
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2 years ago
Nov 30, 2021, 9:52:34 PM

Beelining would be fine if

1. The base costs for the End game techs themselves were appropriately high (only science civs or controllers of the majority of the the world should actually get all of them before game end)

2. There was some fill in/catchup mechanics [so that techs that others have researched would be filled in for the low science civs]

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2 years ago
Dec 2, 2021, 8:06:47 PM

The thing about beelining, is that you can't do it. Not really anyway.

You can't build up a science stockpile by not queueing research, and you can't research the next era until you reach it.

So, what, you research the one early modern tech you technically need and then just let any science production you have do nothing? Halt technological progress until you manage to manage to get enough other stars, without the help of any upgrades, to reach the next era? Growing your pop with no food, killing enemies with no units, building districts with no industry, spreading with no influence, and keeping your stability up with no ...whatever word I should use to refer to stability increasers?


I'd guess the "beeline route" is provided intentionally not as a beeline route, but as a catchup route. It's not there for someone doing science to reach the science victory condition faster, its there for someone who failed to have science to still be able to get to later eras. You don't have to invent the wheel if you steal some from somebody who did. Not only do you have some now, you can know how to make more without having done the process of creating the idea. Landlocked powers would never develop ships. They'd never think about ships. Riverboats maybe, but not ocean capable vessels. People's that don't deal with the ocean until late enough that the world is already in the industrial age aren't going to develop age of sail vessels, they're going to skip straight to industrial vessels. One way or another technological advancements already made by someone else make their way to everyone. Reflecting that in game in the direct manner of everyone else just getting any tech a few turns after somebody else got it wouldn't have been good for the game though.


So the catchup route exists as a bypass for factions with no need of given earlier techs and factions who couldn't or didn't produce science early on. It's not there for you with your science capable faction to burn your way to the end of the science tree faster. It's there so that faction A who has little to no science can follow the bypass route, and only just be finishing it when they're ready to advance era, so that when they reach industrial and contemporary they can actually reach industrial and contemporary. Taking the research bypass route is the in game manifestation we get of stealing or learning other peoples advancements in the meantime. It's also there so that when I spawn in the center of a massive continent, I can choose to just ignore naval techs whether I have good science or not, researching things I'll actually use, and only get to boats at the point in the game I need them.

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