Hi, everybody. 

An important quality of global strategies is the abundance and variety of mechanics. They greatly expand the gameplay. And even the smallest mechanics can help win the game. But recently, (even after playing Endless Space) I decided to play Endless Space 2 and was a little surprised by the number of mechanics in it. Immediately I remembered a lot of reviews on Steam, in which people complained about the overload of games-mechanics. Man just can't cope.

Well, so, I propose to introduce in the upcoming game mode “Low threshold of entry”, in which some mechanics are cut or become automatically controlled by AI. This will allow beginners-to understand the basic mechanics in calm circumstances. Or you can use it as a Zen mode.

Thank you in advance.

I think this got worse in Endless Legend and Endless Space 2 with expansions. The base game of each felt right but I definitly feel the bloat when playing them both now with all DLC.

Hacking in ES2 paticullary comes to mind as its a constant activity I had a number of occassions in my last game where I had nothing worth hacking as all potential targets were too difficult or risky and failing a hack leads to penalites yet I was continually pestered to 'get hacking!' Perhaps there should have been more passive hacking activites like surveillence of rival data packets or something that just gives you a bit of information or vision that you can do if there are no aggressive hacking activites you want to commit.

Back on topic more what sort of mechanics did you find overwhelming when you started? The expansion mechanics can be disabled so you can cut them out yourself. The politics are obtuse but they dont demand constant attention you can pretty much leave it most of the time.

Hey there, wild dev appearing!

As MasterofMobius said, I'd be really interested to know more about what you found overwhelming at first. Or even in the long-term.

What kind of mechanics would you have liked to see disabled until you had a better grasp of the game? Which would be the one you'd like to have at first?

Cheers,

Oriolie

All kind time of day!

I apologize for writing this message so late. And also, I apologize in advance that I remained true to myself and did not translate this text manually (i.e. translated using a translator). I leave the original in Russian:RU Низкий порог вхожения.docx

So, I will Express my thoughts about the possibility of easier entry into the gameplay. 

Strategy-a genre that is considered, if not elitist, then close to this value.  In my opinion - this statement is true. But only in part. In my opinion, in strategies you yourself (as a player) set the difficulty of the game. And we are not talking about the standard scale of complexity of the enemy " easy-difficult”, no. We are talking about the man himself, because he chooses how to play these strategies. You can just skip moves, you can move units. And you can-use a variety of mechanics, some of which – seem useless and unnecessary. It is clear that on one chessboard, in a game between checkers and chess – chess is more likely to win (due to the large number of different opportunities). But not everyone likes to play chess, think ahead a lot of moves with different figures. A lot of people just like checkers. A simple opportunity to move something, to control it. Plus-in chess so simply and quickly you will not learn to play (at least, in comparison with checkers). I hope I was able to explain my thought with a metaphor.

Also here, I suggest making it possible to play checkers, inside chess. Gradually, if the player wants (and he wants, if there is a desire to win), you can add to these simple figures – more complex. So it will not cause a shock from the number of different possibilities, the number of different mechanics. By the way, I did not take the above thesis from the ceiling, try to go to the physics classroom, after the lesson-explaining the huge material using various mathematical functions, on the Board-to the previous class, look at this very Board and with a decent degree of probability-you will not go into details. The brain does not like to be loaded with a large amount of information for a short period of time.

Now that I have poured out my soul, it is possible to suggest how I see possible solutions.

1.    Training.

Sounds corny. But I'm adding something to this concept (maybe adding). 

I do not remember how it is in EL; I do not know how in ES2, in training at the beginner level, but I do know that in ES and in ES2 at higher levels of training – it is partially absent. It is about gradual learning. And no, I mean – gradually introduce the mechanics, one by one. And before that-it is desirable to hide them from the eyes of the player.

You can work out a script, even with a plot. For example-to expand the narrative in ancient times, at the very beginning of the formation of human civilization, the period of formation of tribes. There, just you can enter some basic mechanics, give it to use and explain its input-the progress of human civilization. For example, at first people needed food – for existence and maintenance of a kind (and now it is necessary). Therefore, we only introduce it first (for example). We explain how it works, and ... Introduce the next resource-production. After all, people need appropriate human and material resources to build something.

And so on. The main thing is that the player does not feel (at least not strongly) that he is "led by the handle". Otherwise, just the excitement is lost. You can also calmly come up with a simple plot, in which unobtrusively and not directly explained mechanics.

2.    Training mode

It's been a while Since I mentioned checkers-chess, don't you think? 

In this mode-I would like to be able to implement conditional checkers inside chess. I'll tell you in advance (let me remind you), I have no idea what possible mechanics Amplitude has already come up with. By the way, I'm all for the large number of mechanics in the game! Really interesting to play. I'm just thinking about newbies. After all, you do not want to pour a tub of information on an unprepared viewer. 

What is the main idea-just cut all the mechanics, except for the basic ones (conditionally turn ES2 into ES and trim the top, if someone up to this point is not tired of my metaphors (I have nothing against these games, with pleasure I play them, I just used them as a conditional example)). What can not be cut – put on automatic control of Artificial Intelligence. ” Excess " information – to remove from the screen. Again, leave only the basic mechanics (because Food-Production-Dust-Science-Influence (the latter can also be hidden), movement points of units, etc.) and the necessary information for them.

Over time, if required - you can expand the functionality of the player (in this mode).

Conclusion.

Ugh, signed! Now, what do I think about this idea itself at all “ " Yes, it contains errors\not rational approaches to action. Yes, it is big and hard to implement. But the question raised by it, namely-a lower threshold of entry into the game or in General into the genre of strategies-in my opinion is relevant. And perhaps there is an opportunity to finally break the barrier standing at the entrance to this very genre: strategy. And perhaps, as I hope, my ideas (in part or in full) - will help (partially or completely) to cope with this task”" 

Thank you and I apologize (there is for that, take, at least, volume of this text).

P.S. It is important to say checkers (in Russian: "шашки", also has the main significance - stabbing-cutting cold weapons) - a logical game in which two players take turns moving their chips. Chips at the same time-have (relative to chess) freedom of movement. I write this in order to avoid misunderstanding about the name of the game. I really don't know what it is in other countries. Just in case I give the link to the page in Wikipedia: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B8

Once again, I'm not asking to cut the mechanics of the game. I really like a lot of mechanics. And your work-I look forward to, is huge. But the more the mechanic is, the harder it is to understand them. I, more mean-to give the chance to look at a pure basis, at basic mechanics without everything, to understand and master them. 

Nothing cut from the game I do not require.

As MasterofMoebius wrote, new mechanics were brought by expansions and updates. I think people who played the game continuously since it was released were overwhelmed by the new additions, but it's different for beginners who start playing with all expansions.

I think that it's safe to assume that Humankind won't be overwhelming at release.

Now of course there's the tricky question of how tutorial work in strategy games. Most of the time you have a text-based tutorial that introduces you to the different features at the beginning of the game, and some kind of in-game encyclopedia to help you with details. The endless series also have a great user experience which means their gameplay is often quite intuitive, even if the quantity of features can become overwhelming. 

I'm not sure "learning scenarios" is something that would work in this kind of game. Scenarios can train you to make better strategic or tactical choices, but learning game mechanics in strategy games is generally done either by reading tutorials/encyclopedias or by just trying and retrying, clicking on stuff until it works. It can be frustrating for people who want to understand everything immediately but i'm not sure there's another option. 

A good UI and easily found informations are generally sufficient for most players. The training mode is literally just playing the game and trying to click on stuff. If it doesn't work, you can just relaunch a game. Cutting features in a special scenario wouldn't work well - at worst you get a malfunctioning game because in the strategy genre everything usually work together, and at best you're actually learning bad habits. Strategy games can feel overwhelming, but new players shouldn't be afraid to experiment, because that's the best way to learn how to play.

Indeed, it is not a fact that even with the full implementation of the idea (I doubt that it will be complete) - there will be a positive response. But if there are resources, you can also try. God will not give, the pig will not eat (phraseology).

Slashmam, Yes, you can make a few training scenarios (either by the developers themselves to prescribe, or give the functionality to the players (although in the latter case, I can not imagine how the scenario will differ from the game (I mean, that the functionality of fine-tuning the world can be entered into the main game) except that only the plot, if there is one).

I heard you, Ezumiyr. I also agree with your opinion. Indeed, scenarios can simply start to play themselves (the player is not needed), the only thing I came up with to deal with this problem is to introduce the plot (to make it interesting to pass them) and "do not lead the player by the handle", i.e. to give the player a goal and only roughly indicate the method of solution. To make the player think and not just poke the end of turn button. So the material will be absorbed better.

Also agree that Humankind will not be suppressed and that by the experience of the players adapting to the game will be better. Plus - experience of developers.

Do not think that the ingame encyclopedia is completely useful. It is more difficult for a person to perceive textual information than visual (figurative). But Yes, she naturally need a, the more, that she already there is (hint, describe and camping on p.), under desire can be its to reduce in one resource.

What about the training regimen.

Yes, all mechanics really work in tandem. But this does not mean that all of them cannot exist without others. You can play the game without DLC. Still, there are basic mechanics, which are superimposed additional. You will not be able to create the mechanics of the cities without existing mechanics resources (for example). 

The goal of creating a mode - not to cut everything, but to show the basic mechanics in its purest form (because in any case, the study of the game begins with them).

All thanks.

After reading this thread, I can't help but to think of a few mechanics-heavy games I've played lately that actually kind of solved this issue, where the only way to effectively learn to play them is to start from scratch and ramp up, gradually adding new mechanics along the way on a script. And both of them are city builders with a light RTS aspect to them.

The games I'm referring to are Ubisoft's Anno 2070 and Haemimont's Tropico 5 (not certain if later games of these series work the same since I haven't tried them). What they did was to introduce some kind of a mission-based story mode (not unlike Ezumiyr's scenarios reference) that had specific goals related to one or two core mechanics. Once the mission is completed, the current game is "won" and the next mission unlocks and can be played, adding a layer of new mechanics on top of the previously assimilated ones. Although it may sound literally like what a tutorial is, the trick they pulled is that it doesn't feel like it, in both games. They designed the missions so that they are lengthy and difficult enough to give the player a sense of accomplishment while making them almost necessary.

For me, the problem with "traditional" tutorials (where info is provided to the player on a popup... once) is the lack of context, especially for mechanics-heavy games. Often, it reads something like "This does that! Try doing this!" and it stops there. From experience and having looked at a few newbies stream somewhat complex games, like full DLC Civ 6 for example, it's a very, very ineffective method if the intent is to teach. Often times, the info is either read but isn't assimilated, is brushed aside never to be visible again or lacks significance to a new player.

The opposite of this is brute force, where you learn along the way, like in the Endless games. Personally, I don't mind this method. I guess I'm lucky that I like to learn and analyze game mechanics but I can understand how A LOT of players often feel overwhelmed, lose interest or don't even pick up certain types of games because of previous bad experiences with them or because they "look" complex. Investing X amount of hours simply learning a game, where a player is not given positive (or negative) feedback is not what I would consider "best practices", in general.

Not sure if this is relevant but there you go.

The thing that I'm most interested in learning when I pick up a new strategy game is the timing of everything.  With 4X in particular I wonder how many turns until I generally reach early, mid and late game?  Breaking the game up into eras certainly helps with this but I always wonder by what turn should I have a second city, how many cities should I have, etc.  What made a HUGE difference for me in understanding the timing of Endless Legend was realizing that the cost of the Empire Plan and luxury resource boosters was affected by how many cities you owned.  Once I realized this, I felt more confident in planing the expansion of my empire.  I think any similar mechanics in Humankind should be emphasized in the tutorial.  

Oriolie wrote:

Hey there, wild dev appearing!

As MasterofMobius said, I'd be really interested to know more about what you found overwhelming at first. Or even in the long-term.

What kind of mechanics would you have liked to see disabled until you had a better grasp of the game? Which would be the one you'd like to have at first?

Cheers,

Oriolie

Even though I would brand myself as an experienced strategy and 4X player, I feel there are still mechanics in games that dissuade me from picking them up, or bog me down when I start playing them. So I can imagine that players new to the genre would feel even more overwhelmed.

One thing I've seen mentioned in other threads is cutting down on micromanagement. And I would especially add cutting down on micro that does not result in any kind of deeper strategy choices for the player. One example is collecting Pearls in Endless Legend. On the one hand, I like that it encourages the player to continually explore around the map, but I don't feel like the micro of having to send units around and pick up all the Pearls is really worth what it adds. The real strategic aspect of it for me is choosing how to spend your Pearls. In order to keep this mechanic, which overall adds another interesting layer to the game, I would recommend some kind of targeted auto-explore feature. So I can click one button that says gather all the closest Pearls, and my unit can go do it without me babysitting.

Another aspect of Endless games that doesn't particularly add much for me is equipping and refitting units with different armor and weapons. For newer players it can be a lot to take in in order to understand which equipment combinations are best. And for experienced players it kinda feels like a chore in my opinion. I would rather be managing the big decisions of my empire like politics, economy and diplomacy rather than periodically being pulled away from that to upgrade soldiers' weapons; it can really disrupt the flow of the game for new players as well.

I would rather see a system that gives you a more binary option of 2 variations on a unit which have clear strengths and weaknesses. Each of these could be unlocked through strategic/luuxury resources or even certain political policies or events. Then I still get some strategic choice without the hassle of opening up unit menus and upgrading everything piecemeal.

As others said, I don't want features removed from the game because I like a lot of features. But I hope the goal will be to not simply add features that give the player more busy-work, but to add features that provide the player with meaningful decisions and potential strategic depth. I feel the ideal mechanic is one that a new player can learn how to use on a basic level and feel rewarded for it, but that also has wrinkles that require a deeper understanding of the game to master. Good examples of these are minor faction relations and district spread in EL. Within the first 20 minutes a new player can understand that defeating or becoming allies with a minor faction is positive progress, however more advanced players know which minor factions are most useful to their particular game situation. And it's obvious that I want to spread my districts and reach good hexes, but even this has deeper strategic elements that affect how veterans choose to arrange their cities.

Finally in regards to training or tutorials, I wouldn't necessarily disable any functions of the game. I would rather see feature-specific scenarios which promote knowledge of particular aspects of the game. For example, to explain combat, sieges, and unit production you could place the player in a scenario where they must defend 3 cities being attacked simultaneously. Then have tooltips guiding them through the process. You could even extrapolate this out and have scaling difficulties which appeal to more skilled players as well. Tutorial and extra scenario for the development price of one!

I recently picked up ES2 and I thought the tutorial was quite good for how many systems are in the game. One critique would be to add more small, specific reminders for players as they go. I was generally able to understand the big concepts from the tooltips, but I would have liked more practical advice. So after population on planets and migration is explained, if I still keep a bunch of pops with an arid bonus on an Atoll planet while I have an empty Arid planet ripe for working, perhaps the advisor could point this mistake out. And maybe show how many resources I lost over the past 5-10 turns by not switching over those pops. This would be really helpful for new players to get an idea of how these seemingly small decisions can snowball into major progress.

That was super long, so thanks to anyone who takes the time to read.

Oriolie wrote:

Hey there, wild dev appearing!

As MasterofMobius said, I'd be really interested to know more about what you found overwhelming at first. Or even in the long-term.

What kind of mechanics would you have liked to see disabled until you had a better grasp of the game? Which would be the one you'd like to have at first?

Cheers,

Oriolie

Hacking comes to mind - having played 600+ hrs of ES2.

 I would prefer that mechanics like hacking took longer, but had greater impact. This would decrease the constant micromanagement.