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Feedback: Coastal cities and expanding cities in general

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3 years ago
Apr 25, 2021, 3:11:03 AM

Coastal cities:


Currently, they simply don't really exist since you can set up your outpost far into the mountains and, as long as the territory has coasts, you'll be able to have a coastal city that produces naval units.

 

It's not game breaking, but the final result can be visually jarring, with harbours that are placed for efficiency at the far end of nowhere.


In addition, this freedom also reduces the strategic value of harbours, coastal cultures and naval units.


A few ideas on how it might evolve:

  1. Harbours could have adjacency requirements similar to other districts or even more strict and have to be connected to the central plaza.
  2. There could be additional sea resources (maybe just a generic "fish" tile) that could balance the coastline in the early game, before the harbours can exploit more coastal tiles. 
  3. Some cultures could have traits/bonuses that apply specifically to coastal districts (for example, extra research/food/production/etc. on coastal districts)
Doing that would give players additional interesting choices when considering city placement and cultures and would results in a final map that looks and feels like an actual civilization.

It could also open the possibility of adding a "raider" play-style (later, after launch) where you send your ships on the coastline to pillage and plunder the districts of your neighbours.

Expanding cities in general: 


I also have a minor issue with the adjacency requirements for expanding cities. Simply put, with the current system, you sort of have to create less than efficient districts in order to reach interesting areas and/or, depending on the size of a territory, you can end up only exploiting a fraction of its interesting tiles because the rest of them are just too far away (at least until later eras).


The other drawback is that this system strongly pushes the players into creating cities that cover entire territories which, by the mid/end game look a bit unrealistic.


Of course, It's not a big issue, but it can be a little annoying for players who are not looking to recreate (Star War's) Coruscant or (Asimov's) Trantor and have an end game map that looks realistic, with cities and villages throughout the empire, rather than a city world.


A few ideas on how it might evolve:

  1. maybe the makers and farmers districts shouldn't have adjacency requirements? That way we'll end up creating a town centre surrounded by theatres, research districts, wonders, etc. and the rest of the territory could have farmlands and productions areas.
  2. an alternative could be that the fortress district or the artisans/mines improvements could act as regular districts and allow the connection of further districts to them. That way you'd have territories with a real city centre and small islands of development that would look like smaller villages.


Thanks for reading this.





 



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3 years ago
Apr 25, 2021, 1:45:56 PM

I agree with these thoughts on costal cities and city expansion. I didn't particularly like how we could put harbors literally anywhere without and influence of city center location. I also agree that they should add "outpost" or "village" districts to add islands of development away from the city center in large territories. It seems like there's too much emphasis on city center building and any productive player would end up covering the entire map with districts eventually. I think there needs to be some bonus that you may choose that will give bonuses to undeveloped tiles in a territory, to prevent this.  

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3 years ago
Apr 25, 2021, 4:39:45 PM

In Victor it seems a change was made to make various districts unbuild-off-able. Previous you could attach districts off harbors, garrisons, wonders, Artisan Quarters, various EQs that didn't have a requirement to be build next to each other, hamlets, etc. However, now you can only build directly off hamlets, which is kind of annoying. 

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Apr 25, 2021, 8:01:39 PM

We already have villages, they are however called hamlets and only avaliable in medieval era and cost as much as harbours. I think they want city center placement to be important, by making various districts be placed freely, you reduce the importance of the city center location, so I'm not sure it is a good idea. I could see hamlets being moved to ancient era, maybe reduce their industry cost significantly or removed completely but add influence cost so you have a way to play tall with your influence. Right now there don't seems to be many ways to spend your influence.


Harbours, I think the placement rule is good, what I could see changed is that districts placed next to the harbour gets and or give major adjacency, making it very attractive to place other districts next to the harbours. Maybe also the harbour should have levels like in endless legend. Level 1 harbour would be a harbour next to no districts and would be like what it is currently. Level 2 harbour would need 2 adjacent district or a city/administrative center (to encourage costal placement. Level 2 harbour would exploit 4 tiles away in each direction and a level 3 harbour would need 4 adjacent districts or a city center + 2 other districts and would exploit 6 tiles away in each direction, but these harbours would be rare if you don't have it next to the city center.

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3 years ago
Apr 25, 2021, 8:21:24 PM
Goodluck wrote:

We already have villages, they are however called hamlets and only avaliable in medieval era and cost as much as harbours. I think they want city center placement to be important, by making various districts be placed freely, you reduce the importance of the city center location, so I'm not sure it is a good idea. I could see hamlets being moved to ancient era, maybe reduce their industry cost significantly or removed completely but add influence cost so you have a way to play tall with your influence. Right now there don't seems to be many ways to spend your influence.


Harbours, I think the placement rule is good, what I could see changed is that districts placed next to the harbour gets and or give major adjacency, making it very attractive to place other districts next to the harbours. Maybe also the harbour should have levels like in endless legend. Level 1 harbour would be a harbour next to no districts and would be like what it is currently. Level 2 harbour would need 2 adjacent district or a city/administrative center (to encourage costal placement. Level 2 harbour would exploit 4 tiles away in each direction and a level 3 harbour would need 4 adjacent districts or a city center + 2 other districts and would exploit 6 tiles away in each direction, but these harbours would be rare if you don't have it next to the city center.

Completely agree on those thoughts.


1. Harbors should indeed give/have some adjacency bonuses o make it interesting to get quarters built near it (some interesting bonus for gold from trade routes or adjacent money quarter would be cool). At the same time I support having only one harbor per territory  and the fact that you can't randomly build quarters around it.


2. The game allows you to build coastal cities (and I've seen AI cities built on the coast), either current map or general yield adjacency system doesn't favor going for it. It's way easier to focus on mountain/forest areas to get huge production boost. 

Although to be fair I built one of my cities near the coast in the north (the territory with two leads) but that's primarily because of science tiles (geysers) located pretty much next to the coast line.


3. In general there isn't much to do on the seaside especially in the ancient/classical era - while naval units can do some exploration and help you meet other cultures and IPs there are not much benefits from having more than one pentekonter.  There aren't many resources on the sea to explore and collect, anyone to fight or coastal lines to ransack or build outposts.

There is a great cost reduction for sea trade routes (and that's amazing), however without pirates or any forms of threat for them your fleet is pretty much only for exploration.


  

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3 years ago
Apr 28, 2021, 5:45:18 PM

I strongly agree with the original idea - harbours should require that they're built off existing districts (connected to the main plaza, a territory outpost, or a hamlet).

Currently, we're free to place the harbour wherever it produces the highest FIMS, even if it's on the other end of the territory - this disconnect from the rest of the city means we don't have to make any interesting decisions when weighing between our city and harbour placements. This current system encourages us to settle on the best spot for a city (more likely to be inland) and to place the harbour on the best coastal tile (wherever covers the most tiles within a 2-tile radius).


If the city proper and its harbour were linked, then I'd have to make the (interesting) decision on whether to:

- Settle on a great inland location, which might not be near the best harbour location.
Or:
- Settle on a great coastal spot for a harbour, which might not be the best area for other districts.

This also gives us another, temporal tradeoff - whether to build a (suboptimal) harbour as soon as we have a district near the coast, or to wait until our city expands to a more attractive coastal region before building the harbour there.

(This incentive to settle cities closer to the coast would also open up the naval game and make naval units more important - something that seemed lacking in the Victor OpenDev.)

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Apr 28, 2021, 6:55:51 PM

I preferred the method in the Lucy Dev that allowed pretty much total freedom of placement for Harbours and more importantly that you could build districts off of them. This meant you had very aloborate and beautiful coast networks that not only looked pretty, but were also prime targets for raids or seiging. I'd say they also made city centres less important in Victor by removing its ability to extract all FIMS, now only FI. Now you only care about those two resources when placing the city when before you had way more options.

Updated 3 years ago.
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