Hola! As you have seen we have tweak a couple of things in terms of balance, such as influence cost, tenets or cultures. Here is the list with all the details of the changes.
Influence Balancing
You probably know how many players bring up the rapidly growing influence costs for various actions in the game. To be honest, some of those costs did spiral a bit out of control in the mid to late game. So we are adjusting some factors to the following:
Civics: Reduced the cost impact of Number of Enacted Civics
Attaching Outposts: Reduced the impact of already attached territories by 40%
Merging Cities: Reduced the impact of Infrastructure Buyout Cost by over 50%
Vassalization
Forcefully Vassalizing an opponent after a war will now be cheaper if you have more Fame than them. Roughly every 200 Fame should provide a 10 point reduction in War Score Cost.
Militarist Affinity:
While the Iron Reserves ability is incredibly powerful when exploited by an experienced player, we found that most more casual players find it extremely weak and almost never use it. So, we are making some tweaks to it to make it feel better to use for casual players, while fixing some bugs and unintended uses:
Militia units in Eras 5 and 6 now cost 2 pop each to raise (sieges unaffected)
Militia units can be upgraded into professional units in the Anti Cavalry branch (starting from Spearmen up to Rifles in the 6th era)
Militia units are no longer free to heal
Fixed an exploit that created population when upgrading and disbanding units
Adjusted Ability Cooldown to scale with gamespeed and army size
Cultures
Now we're getting into the meat of the balancing
[ERA 1]
Phoenicians
Phoenician LT loses early naval tech cost reductions, gains +1 CS and +1 Movement Speed on naval units
EU becomes Naval Transport, unlocked with Fishing. 13CS, 2 Movement Speed (14CS and 3 Move Speed with LT)
Phoenicians gain access to Pentekonter
EQ gains a +1 Food worker slot (as money is not that powerful in the Ancient Era)
Hittites
LT: tech cost reduction to wheel replaced with "+20 to FIMS per Occupied City on each of their Own Cities" (Note: This effect ends with the war.)
Emblematic Quarter provides +3 Money and +20 Health Regen to friendly units in territory
Assyria
Dunnu counts as Commons Quarter
Myceneans
EQ loses additional industry bonus
Olmec
LT now gives +3 Influence per territory (was +1)
[ERA 2]
Romans
EQ now permanently gives +5 Influence, +5 Stability for each adjacent district
EQ now counts as Commons Quarter
EQ gives +50 Fame if completed while city is Victorious
LT –30% upkeep reduction replaced with +50% experience gain on unit (as army upkeep seems to rarely be a concern for players)
LT lost -30% Research Cost for Imperial Power
Praetorian Guard lose 1CS (now 29)
Goths
LT: Removed Ransack Combat Strength Bonus (difficult to understand for players)
LT: Added "+25% of Ransack Gains earned as Science per Army Unit" Currently bugged: Provides 50% bonus instead
EQ Base Yields unchanged, but no Stability penalty
EQ also increases overall ransack bounty by +5%
EQ now counts as Commons Quarter
Era 2+ nomads (Huns, Mongols)
No longer gain food as combat spoils
Now can collect special “Pasture” curiosities that spawn on Prairie and Dry Grass which give food
Huns
LT: Added +5 science per Unit on hostile territory
Garamantes
EQ now provides +1 food on exploitation on local territory territory
EQ provides +2 food per adjacent sterile tile
EQ now must be build next to Sterile, Stony Field, or Rocky Field
[ERA 3]
Aztecs
EQ now counts as Commons Quater
EQ now gives +10 Stability (was +5)
EQ provides double yield while Sacrificing
EQ provides +1CS to all units per sacrificing city
Mongols
LT: Added -25% Vassalization cost reduction
[ERA 4]
Ming
LT: Replaced "+1 Influence on Territory" with "+10 Influence per enacted Civic"
EQ: No longer provides Stability, but counts as Commons Quarter instead
EQ: restricted +1 Influence on District effect to local territory
Poles
EQ now counts as Commons Quarter
Venetians
LT: Added +1 Influence per trade route to existing effect
EQ: +2 Money base yield (was +1)
EQ: +2 Influence per adjacent District (was +1 per market before)
Spain
EQ now gives +5 stability (was -10)
EQ now counts as Commons Quarter
[ERA 5]
Ethiopia
Legacy Trait Effect boosted to +10 Science on Garrisons (was +5)
Legacy Trait gains "CS of hostile units within borders gained as Science"
EQ now counts as Commons Quarter
EQ now properly counts as Garrison
Zulu
EQ now counts as Farmers Quarter
EQ now serves as construction anchor like Hamlet
EQ now gives +25XP on new units (was +10)
French
EQ loses "Collective Minds" effect
EQ gains +2 Science per trade route
Russians
LT loses old effects
LT gains "-25% outpost creation cost"
LT gains +10 Fortification on settlements
[ERA 6]
USSR
Resource now only applies CS bonus if unit is Supplied
Americans
EQ loses "strength on adjacent units"
EQ no longer reduces Stability
EQ gains gold synergy with Garrisons
EQ counts as Market Quarter
EQ counts as Commons Quarter?
EQ gives +3 Bombardment Strength (Yes, this is global.)
Japan
EQ loses explicit synergy effect with Makers and Research quarters (provided by infrastructures through "counts as")
EQ: Restricted +2 Science and +2 Industry effects to local territory
Turks
LT buffed to +3 Food per pop (was +1)
Brazil
EQ: gains "+3 Science per adjacent Farmers Quarter"
EQ: gains +1 Researcher slot
EQ now counts as research quarter
Religious Districts and Tenets
We've added an explicit line in the "counts as" section for religious districts. Currently, the list of Religious Districts includes all Holy Sites ("normal" and cultural wonders, but this may not be displayed yet), and the the following Emblematic Quarters
Aztec
Maya
Edo Japanese
Spanish
Russian
Umayyads
Maurya
Celts
Goths
Aksumites
Teutons
Ottomans
Nazca
(Yes, we know the list isn't complete. Feel free to point out any missing ones so we can include them in the post release patch.)
In addition to that, we have added an additional effects to the following Tenets
Tier 1
Respect the seas’ bounties : +2 Food on Religious District
Abstain from Intoxicants: +2 Industry on Religious District
Seek Wisdom: +2 Science on Religious District
Shelter the True Oracles: +2 Influence on Religious District
Be virtuous as Water: +2 Stability on Religious District
Reject Luxury: +2 Money on Religious District
Tier 2
Undertake Pilgrimage: +2 Influence on Religious District
Bear not False Witness: +2 Science on Religious District
Give Alms: +2 Money on Religious District
Observe Fasts : +2 Food on Religious District
Protect the Weak: +2 Stability on Religious District
Tier 3
Develop the Intellect: +2 Science on Religious District
Purge Idleness: +2 Industry on Religious District
Mandate Patronage: +2 Money on Religious District
Proselytize Daily: +2 Influence on Religious District
Tier 4
Raise Monuments: +2 Science on Religious District
Donate Generously: +2 Money on Religious District
Sustain the Faithful: +2 Stability on Religious District
We hope you like these changes and have fun with the beta.
Some quick thoughts (questions underlined, concerns/thoughts in bold, gushing unformatted :) )
Phonecians is interesting! Let's see how it changes early seafaring.
Olmecs +1 to +3 influence is good for them, but I'm always worried about influence-over-foreign-territories snowballing. I'm curious what this change does.
Those science-with-units changes on Huns, Goths, Ethiopians is neat and compelling!
I love that the Goths got some love from top to bottom. This EQ change seems transformative, especially dropping the stability penalty and making it a CQ and HS. Excited to try them.
Love to see some of these EQs count as Commons Quarters. Will EQs that count as Commons Quarters (CQ) also mean bonus +5 stability per adjacent districts, or is that limited to "true" CQs? Aztec Altars and Roman Arches feel great now. I remember this specific thread in G2G; it feels great having these conversations and knowing you're listening to us. :)
Garamantes EQ limited to sterile/stony/rocky is a good fix. Currently you can pop them on fertile land for huge food gains as though they were English Strongholds. They're maybe too powerful in a way that wasn't intended -- that doesn't feel like it's their niche, you know? I'm very excited to see this change in action.
Ming, Venetian, Spanish all look like great, balancing changes. Seeing the Spanish EQ give a bonus to stability and count as a CQ makes me want to see that in the Umayyad, Ottoman, and Mughal EQs, too. Mosques are community centres and should be treated like Catedrals, Altars, Tumulii, etc. are now. However, bonus stability on the Jama Masjid would make it too strong with its production benefits though, I know. (It's maybe too strong already)
Ethiopian changes welcome. They had a great idea behind them but numerically it was a bit weak. I'd love to see their EQ count as a Garrison and a Research Quarter instead of a Garrison and Commons Quarter; I'm a bit confused why a CQ was chosen. Was this a typo?
Zulu EQ changes: Seems alright, but it feels like it's just another Maasai Enkang.
French EQ changes: Nice! French EQ needed a different buff with the changes to Collective Minds, and trade routes is a clever swap!
USSR: Nice change. Defensive powerhouse and no longer bonkers aggressers.
Americans: Interesting. No thoughts yes, but I'm glad it's being changed.
Japan EQ: Probably fair, though by Era 6 I didn't find their EQs too strong. Japan's strength was in their LT and Collective Minds being overpowered (fixed)
Also: Even though they don't produce "Faith", consider treating the Ancient Era Olmec Head, and the Meroe and Egyptian Pyramids as Religious Districts?
Tenet bonuses on religious districts is a neat idea, and encourages more religious factions! I'm curious to see how these play. :D
RedSirus wrote: I love that the Goths got some love from top to bottom. This EQ change seems transformative, especially dropping the stability penalty and making it a CQ and HS. Excited to try them.
Sorry, small clarification: That was meant to say "Religious District" not "Holy Site." A slight miscomunication from "French Designer" to "English CommDev," if you will. ^^
RedSirus wrote: Will EQs that count as Commons Quarters (CQ) also mean bonus +5 stability per adjacent districts, or is that limited to "true" CQs?
I believe the +5 Stability on adjacent is only on "true" commons quarters, but these districts will no benefit from related Civics etc.
RedSirus wrote: Aztec Altars
Just a small remark after I checked it in the dev build: The tooltips don't reflect these changes yet.
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Really hyped for the work being done, I agree, excellent changes. Kudos for updating so many quarters to also function as commons, it was so counterintuitive, as well with the religious districts.
Balance wise, I want to give it a try first, but, more science and further differentiation of cultures is good, (I like Mongols and Huns feeling different now) specially like more cultures being able to generate science in their own way, sort of like Zhou already does.
I'm really want to try Phenicians now, because, (maybe I'm understanding it wrong but), if they EU is a transport now, does that mean Phoenicia can actually go nuts and colonize early? if so that's massive, and opens quite a diferent play style from the get go.
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These changes sound really amazing! Even small tweaks can feel hugely impactful in the right scenario, so this gets me really excited to get playing and see all these updates in-game.
Damage up for bombardment is an interesting twist, and does tie in with the Lightning, so that's neat synergy. Even if it's conditional though, this damage up should probably still be capped or heavily limited in some capacity; if an American player can get enough Defense Agencies such that their Lightnings can one-shot a single unit (with splash damage that could potentially one-shot as well), that's just recreating the Soviet issue.
The main problem with religion in general is mostly what to do when a player has already got 4 tenets, which is something that can happen as early as the Medieval Era. When that happens, I think there're only two reasons to get any more faith once a religion gets to 4 tenets: to get more followers to fuel Teuton's Spurred by Faith, and to power up Angkor Wat. And those only apply if one picks the Teuton culture, or built the Angkor Wat. The additional benefits to tenets and religious districts are cool, but I'd still like to see some reason to get more faith/followers beyond what's been mentioned.
Edit: Also just realized, each Defense Agency grants +3 bombard damage up?? I'm assuming bombard damage is calculated against units in the same way damage in fights are calculated, so if that's the case, a Defense Agency is 3x Arms Factories worth of bombard damage up?? That seems ridiculous (if that's how bombard damage works).
Edit2: Okay well I guess Soviet units do get 3 chances to apply their Weapons damage bonus each turn (from 3 rounds of attacks per turn), but again this seems like a recreation of the Soviet issue. Will definitely be going Americans more often with this patch, just to see how often I can get Lightnings that one-shot with bombard.
EQ provides +1CS to all units per sacrificing city
I hadn't noticed that last part (bolded, underlined) until now. How does this scale? If I have three cities with three altars each, that's nine altars... If all three cities are Sacrificing, would we expect to see a CS increase on all of our units of +3, +9, or +27? Is that global, or do the units need to be in the city/territory with the altar?
Oh yeah, are we going to see the standardization of indirect fire labeling too? I like that Baira Hunters and Saṃnāhyas can indirect fire even w/out the labeling (so they're more like Archers and less like XBows), but having some consistency here would be nice.
Surfing on the Encyclopedia made me realize how many EQs are religious-adjacent. Those are in alphabetic order, separated by Era:
Astronomy House
Cerimonial Plaza
Confucian School
Egyptian Pyramid
Meroe Pyramids
Olmec Heads
Amphitheatron
Great Obelisk
K'uh Nah
Nazca Lines
Nemeton
Stupa
Triumphal Arch
Tumulus
Batey
Grand Mosque
Hippódromos
Sacred Mound
Sacrificial Altar
Scriptorium
Catedral Gótica
Grand Teahouse
Jama Masjid
Sultan Camii
Tera
Sobor
Ashram
I've made a choice to not include towns, villages, fortresses or citadels, things that had religious infrastructure inside; so that the list does not include English Strongholds, Maasai Enkangs, Mexican Haciendas or other things as such
You really don't know how to play your game, do you? Or maybe you just don't play it.
I dunno where to start, even. Lames affinities (like expansionist or agrarian) are untouched but actually useful militarists nerfed into oblivion? Like, I can understand giving it one nerf, but giving 4 nerfs at the same time - giant cooldown, upkeep to conscripts, more food per good conscripts, no freebie healing anymore. That's just ridiculous. And it wasn't that strong outside of a very specific science rush.
Fame vassalization is bad - it's too abuse prone and, at the same time, it escalates the main issue of the game, i.e., cultures/affinities make you thing that you need to specialize, but actually everyone has to do everything.
Weakest and/or useless nations of ancient (nubians, zhou, caralans, mb bantu) are untouched wereas so-so HIttites are nerfed, lol. Yeah, a 25% cavalry cost discount is much more useful than non-scaling FIDSI bonus. Olmec buff is also unneeded - they're already strong. Phoenicians are whatever - that's not the bonus they need.
Romans are basically nerfed, lul - upkeep was their best part, as well as strong legionnaires. Goths, most likely, too - it feels like with these changes they go from 2 turns ransacks to 3 and that's a colossal delay. And ransack to science doesn't matter as base ransack is really small.
Aztecs are the new soviets, only now in medieval era. You must be 100% incompetent to not see how 6 sacrificing cities adding +6 combat power to movement 6 double-discount troops (basic discounts + jaguar warriors being dirt cheap) is not an issue. Please, just fire whomever designed this changed because it's nothing but peak incompetence.
Mings are nerfed into ground, whereas useless nations like Edo or Ieroques are untouched, lul. Poles too - you place too much value on turtling whereas you can't really win by turtling, at least not without extra economical bonuses. Pure militarist + turtling makes zero sense, not to mention that the ai still doesn't play well in the later eras so there's nothing to turtle against.
Ethiopia change is whatever - numbers are too small by this point. Same for Zulu (and they're already one of top choices, they don't need buffs). French nerf is too big, but I guess they're still OP because science affinity is OP in the last two eras. Russian change is awful - like, it's era 5, mates, the map is already taken. And even if it isn't, outpost creation is inconsequential by this point. Or are you playing blitz exclusively? Not to mention that they're supposed to be military-oriented and so they won't be founding their own outposts.
American change is dangerous - we're talking about strength over 9000 bombardments, lol. Like, soviets have already shown this to be a mistake (and soviet weapon factories should've been reworked, they're not nerfed strongly enough), why repeat it?
Brazil buff is bad because it makes them Turkey 2.0 only weaker.
And lots of weak nations are not touched - Chinese, Nigerians and Indians, at the very least, need strong buffs.
Religious buffs are moslty inconsequential, outside of stability, mb. By the time you have 100 religious districts, those 200 science or even influence won't really matter.
Hmm yeah, for Romans I think I'd rather have lost the +1 army size instead of the -30% army cost (or rather just not have lost anything at all, I'm not sure if the Romans are a particularly good pick in the Classical Era). -30% army cost is not as good as just getting more gold, but +1 army size is even less consequential than -30% army cost. I know I've gone to bat for +1 army size before, but it does take a lot of units before +1 army size helps that much with micro.
Bonus fame on building a Triumphal Arch in a victorious city will be funny though.
While I like the idea behind the changes to Aztec and Americans, I agree with others here in saying that it seems like a replication of the Soviets issue.
Idk if this is possible with the systems in place currently, but maybe instead of every sacrificing city, weapons deposit or defense agency giving a flat combat bonus to units, maybe have some kind of diminishing returns mechanic? That is, maybe the first instance gives +1 CS but then to get another +1 cs you need to get 3 more? Then to get a third you'd need to get 6 more on top of that?
OR you could make it so that the bonus only applies to units created in the city with those bonuses? Like, Aztec units only get the combat bonus if they were created in a city with the sacrificing modifier, and American and Soviet units only get the combat bonus when created in a city with their respective districts. That way, you can still scale the bonus but it doesn't automatically apply to the entirety of the player's army and it will limit how far a player can feasibly stretch the bonus.
Overall this looks good. Some feedback before trying it, because these ones immediately stand out to me:
- Russian LT: "25% outpost creation cost" counts for nothing. We are not creating outposts during the industrial era, except maybe some loose island somewhere. Please change it for literally anything else, anything that is actually relevant to the late game.
- USSR: "Resource now only applies CS bonus if unit is Supplied": What does this mean? We need as many resources as units for all of them to be supplied? Please explain.
- Turks didn't need a buff. Who asked for this?
- Religious districts are a great change (please add contemporary era India to the list), but we still need a reason to produce faith after we secured tier 4. Maybe a way to turn some of it into influence? Otherwise contemporary India will always be too weak.
The changes to influence cost and vassal forcing sound great, can't wait to try it. I don't know if the changes to Hittites and America will be enough to make them playable, but I will try the beta before providing feedback on those ones.
DrCron wrote: USSR: "Resource now only applies CS bonus if unit is Supplied": What does this mean? We need as many resources as units for all of them to be supplied? Please explain.
"Supplied" is an army status condition: When you're in friendly or allied territory and your units heal every turn, they are considered "Supplied".
"USSR: "Resource now only applies CS bonus if unit is Supplied" means your units will only gain +CS from weapons while they are within friendly/allied territory, when they'll have the Supplied condition.
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Expand trade, buff rail and split the Contemporary Era - and you will have my allegiance ;)
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