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ENDLESS™ Space 2 is turn-based 4X space-strategy that launches players into the space colonization age of different civilizations within the ENDLESS™ Universe. Your Vision. Their Future.

Frogsquadron

Frogsquadron

6 years ago Sep 19,2018, 14:32:17 PM

Umbral Choir Making-Of, Pt 2: Inside a Game Design meeting

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Hey everyone,


This blog post is the second of a series focusing on the creation process of our upcoming Umbral Choir. We will be covering the game design aspect, then the art, and if everybody's on their best behavior, finish with a G2G vote or two! Ever wondered how the secret sauce was made? Here's your chance!


Today, we are stepping into a game design meeting and looking at how decisions are made.





The stakes for this meeting were pretty high: in the balance, the main gameplay attributes of the Umbral Choir. The ES2 Game Design team had created two visions of the faction, both ambitious and bold new designs, but each had its drawbacks. Today's meeting was about which vision the team would eventually go for, with Spacetroll making the final call. Let's take a closer look at them!



Vision 1: The Hidden Approach (Umbral Choir's Ghillie Suits)


The hidden approach is about playing as tall as possible, kind of like Endless Legend's Cultists. To achieve this, it uses features like:

  • Population merging, allowing the Umbral Choir to keep "growing" while remaining withing the confines of a set system
  • This set system is their unique system, hidden from the rest of the galaxy. In case of emergency, this system can be evacuated
  • The faction relies on a mix of "haunts" (all names between brackets are placeholders), which are systems secretly settled by the Umbral Choir but appear empty, and "traitors" that siphon resources off of the systems they have infiltrated



Vision 2: The Disguise Approach (Umbral Choir's Enemy Uniform)


The disguise approach is about pretending to be another faction, and blending in with them. To achieve this, it uses features like:

  • The ability to disguise its systems & fleets like somebody else's, and mess up diplomacy
  • Systems that start in a "virtual" state and need to be disguised into somebody else's to become "physical" systems
  • Fleet construction is only possible on systems that have a physical presence
  • Otherwise normal number of systems and economy



At these stages, the two visions sound amazing and we can picture the way they would play out. When you can picture yourself picking up this faction and defeating your best frenemies? That's when you know you've struck design shinies. Not all that glitters is gold, though, and both of these have drawbacks, either in terms of gameplay, or in terms of production. Some of them are more significant that others. Remember: if it's a cool idea but it's almost impossible to make, it's not a cool idea, it's a cool dream.


Let's play a game, you and I. Grab a piece of paper, or open Notepad. Put on your thinking cap. Look at each vision above, and find a couple of pros and cons for it. We'll see under the break below if you've found the same reasons why each design can work, and can be problematic, as our designer team.





Here is a picture of Jhell holding a bunch of knives, just so you don't see our answers by accident.

He looks so happy!



Happy with your answers? Alright, let's look at what you got. Well, sorry, we can't *actually* do that, share your findings in the comments if you want to compare notes. Here's what we found for each vision.



Vision 1: Hide-&-Seek Superchampions

Pros:

  • Great non-military approach for the faction (no need to expand!)
  • Strong asymmetry

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Risk of rather passive gameplay overall


Vision 2: Masters of Disguise

Pros:

  • Cool as heck, high potential for "wow" moments
  • Economy is easier to handle for non-expert players

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Another "agressive" playstyle
  • Production: Very high reliance on a huge amount of AI work for success


As you can see, each proposition had pros and cons. The first one was very innovative, and the designers really wanted to try and design a tall faction as this is a recurring demand from the community, but the inherent "hidden" nature of the gameplay created other risks, like passivity, or a lack of interactions with other players.

On the other hand, the second approach was way more agressive in the playstyle, in a subtle way (not Hissho or Cravers-like). However, this came with other constraints that didn’t allow the faction to have a very asymmetrical economy, and with the risk of having a high AI dependency for this approach to succeed. Therefore, we decided to try our hand at innovation and go for the hidden approach!


The next step was to tackle the identified problems: how do you make a hidden faction confront others and hold territory on the map? The answer came naturally with the feature we’ve chosen for spying, and that we hope you’ll like. We can’t give away too much, but we can at least let you know it will mainly take place in the scan view. It’s totally possibe that the UC’s territory will be more prominent in scan view than in galaxy view… but we still have a lot of work and testing to do before we can tell you that for sure.



More on gameplay in a few months... and more on the Umbral Choir next time, with a blog in which we'll show you how we created the art of the faction!



Now, don't be shy, show your notes to the class...

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6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 3:11:29 PM

Now, don't be shy, show your notes to the class...

Alright, these are my notes: 


Vision 1 pros:

  • Great non-military approach for the faction (no need to expand!)
  • Strong asymmetry

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Risk of rather passive gameplay overall

Vision 2 pros:

  • Cool as heck, high potential for "wow" moments
  • Economy is easier to handle for non-expert players

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Another "agressive" playstyle
  • Production: Very high reliance on a huge amount of AI work for success


I did pretty good, dont you think?

:)

Updated 6 years ago.
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6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 3:19:23 PM

The stuff at the end there reminds of Star Wars: Empire at War:Forces of Corruption, how one faction could weave a web of corruption across every system in the map. I definately love playing tall and being sneaky so you have my interest. 

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6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 3:27:28 PM

Wasn't thinking 'bout the pros and cons, but when i saw your two vision, for me it was directly the first vision. And with the pros and cons, it stays THE one for me. I hope this will go on the update, and i really want to test it!

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6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 4:03:07 PM

honestly, i think this faction will be awesome regardless, but i have a though. since this empire is all about trickery, what about ‘fake’ hyperlanes. you can create ‘hyperlane links’ between 2 close systems, hide it until necessary, then release it on an enemy when it is opportune to you, and make something ‘go wrong’. this would automatically be planned on the ship router, so any unobservant players/ AI would fall into it. now, for the ‘go wrong’ part, how about causing a 50% health removal on all ships that used the ‘hyperlane’ due to a malfunction in the hyperdrive and removing all the movement points.

now, we can either get the hyperlane to disappear, oooooor the hyperland becomes visually colored red to the player that crossed it, and they will no longer be able to traverse it. this is so that the player themselves can use it to trick other players (say do ctrl click to move a fleet across while being chased, and the enemy tried to use the fake hyperlane thinking its real).

also, i suggest ‘hiding’ hyperlanes as an option too, to make navigation around the systems more difficult for enemies in the early game, although the umbral choir can still use it themselves.

also, as you mentioned, maybe the hyperlanes would have an indicator if viewed in the scan mode that something is wrong with them without traversing them.



also, what about ships built in “traitorous systems”? maybe you can get them to have a hidden malus when fighting your ships, or maybe apply maluses at will (say, sabotageing them while they are fighting someone else).

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6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 5:52:45 PM

OK OK SOME HASTY THOUGHTS HERE

Vision 1. Wow that one is cool! I can imagine their special home system as an isolated node and them starting with baryonic shielding researched. Their home system can have a huge vision radius so that they can find other constellations. It gives me some illuminati vibe, like this secret court where they rule the whole universe through spying and sabotage..

Pros:


  • Very lore friendly, given that other factions could have never heard of UC before.
  • Counteracts early agression
  • Home system can be a 10 planet supersystem??? *_*
  • Honeycomb Scope finally useful? xD

Cons:

  • Risk of a non-interactive gameplay for other players (Where is my enemy??? o_O)
  • Super tall factions are weak to obliteration as it is..
  • Population merging sounds like Horatio?

Vision 2. Don't feel like diplomacy is good enough in this game to support this kind of gameplay. Also, that kind of stuff feets some digital race more. But, anyway:

Pros: 

  • You could send disguised populations to another empire's system to grow here like viruses and tear its economy apaaaart!!!
  • You could use other empires' unique traits and affinities??

Cons: 

  • No reason to keep your systems "virtual"?
  • That kind of disguise can be easily uncovered, unless you can somehow move your systems..
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6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 6:03:17 PM

i realy do like the second vision, wonder how the empire you disguised as see you.
and i think i have a cool idea how to make them not just another "agressive" faction.

ok, hear me out.
how about giving a small fleet the abillity to "HIDE" in a natural/frandly/"caldwar" system. it's will give you vision on that system, and the abillity to perform a "Sneak Attack".
in wich will give your fleet a big fat combat bonus for this battle only. (but only small fleet can hide, less then your cap for sure)

now there game play will revolving more about seting Traps , compared to the "agressive" playstyle we all know and love. still an agressive faction, but in a different way.

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6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 6:50:36 PM
Touko wrote:

Now, don't be shy, show your notes to the class...

Alright, these are my notes: 


Vision 1 pros:

  • Great non-military approach for the faction (no need to expand!)
  • Strong asymmetry

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Risk of rather passive gameplay overall

Vision 2 pros:

  • Cool as heck, high potential for "wow" moments
  • Economy is easier to handle for non-expert players

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Another "agressive" playstyle
  • Production: Very high reliance on a huge amount of AI work for success


I did pretty good, dont you think?

:)

LOL

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6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 8:09:56 PM

Particularly i didn't like the evacuated aproach for the UC. I'd prefer it in another kind of faction. To protected it from the obliterator you could make the citadels imune to utterly desctruction or add a special feature for the umbral like making the system invisible with the map's fog (maybe with a special building from the research- or quest-  or a special module to the ships - it would be cool if you could make the system invisible by protecting the neigbhord system with ships with that special module).


- Crazy ideia: With a empire with just one system it will be very difficult to stay competitive in wonder building. So, thinking that we already have a strategy resource focused faction ( Vaulter) and try to compensate the wonder difficulties how about make a no Strategy Resource faction? You could make the wonders and buildings cost no strategy resource but cost 50/100% more industry. And to compensate the lack of strategy modules, add a spy action to decrease the power of the enemy ships (like the one in endless legend that decreases the morale). In the lore you could make the choir umbral worship a Lost that don't accept the strategy resources because they are the essences of another Lost (there's a Lost of pure Titanium, pure hyperium,...) or something like that.

Besides, it won't make the wonder victory easy because they only have one system, so just one wonder.

Another cool feature would be they receiving more bonus from the system improvement , like instead of 20 jadonyx for 60 industry, they need 60 jadonys for 180 industry

Updated 6 years ago.
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6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 12:13:01 AM

Several cons for Vision 2, especially in regard to diplomacy manipulation if I understood what I read correctly: 


The AI likely won't be able to handle disguises, both using and detecting them which becomes a big problem if it's the faction's main shtick.


In PvP (or Umbral Choir AI against player) you run into same risks as the Roving Clan privateers in EL: namely that despite their disguise the ownership is not too hard to figure out due to positioning, player communication and possibly other factors like unit stats. The problem is also compounded further by disguising as another faction and sheer scale. How do you realistically disguise immobile systems and fool a player into thinking a specific normal system in certain position isn't owned by the Umbral Choir? What about systems that are being colonized? Alternatively, if you want the Umbral Choir to have disguised systems all around the galaxy instead of expanding in their own neighborhood and instantly giving away their general position, how do they defend their spread out empire without Vaulter teleportation?

  • tl;dr Condensed empire is an instant giveaway to UC's general position regardless of disguise, while a spread out empire is very difficult to defend without turning UC into Vaulters movement wise.


How do you handle war and other diplomatic relations when disguised as another empire and not just as generic pirates? You can't attack in enemy territory in anything but war or cold war with Religious sticky law, or with a hypothetical unique ability that allows the Umbral Choir to ignore these limitations. But either way that also beats the point because if you see disguised ships attacking in your territory, ignoring normal game rules (i.e. the actual diplomatic relations you have with a faction being disguised as) you can instantly recognize them as belonging to the Umbral Choir unless the empire being disguised as already has the same exact relation to the victim, i.e. war. Alternatively you could give the Umbral Choir the ability to directly manipulate other empires' diplomatic relations (essentially declaring war in place of the disguised empire) and spark a conflict that way but it comes with its own share of major issues as well. 

  • tl;dr Conflict with actual diplomatic relations between empires being disguised as vs. diplomatic relations with UC, can make UC easy to spot when they disguise themselves as other empires. On the other hand if UC abide by existing diplomatic relations it makes disguised ships only useful in an already ongoing war.


On the other end how does a player who already knows a disguised system is actually owned by Umbral Choir declare war and attack them? Declare war on the Umbral Choir which is an instant giveaway? Since the attacking player can obviously only invade and move in systems of opponents they're actually at war with, and not the hapless victim being disguised as unless they happen to have the same diplomatic status. Basically the invading player can just fly from system to system in order to check out whether they belong to UC. Or is the player forced to declare war on the main faction being disguised as, despite knowing it's not actually their system? That seems to open up stuff for abuse as well.

  • tl;dr How can diplomatic relations be handled when a player wants to attack disguised UC territory?


Vision 1 and stealth playstyle definitely seems like the more realistic approach without hitting as many roadblocks.

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6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 2:13:36 AM

My biggest issue with vision 1 is that it might be TOO unique.  It would also give the UC the exact same problem that plagues the Horatio and Vaulters.  Their difficulty would be dependant on the map settings.  For example, if there are few/no minor factions, the Horatio suffer.  If there are few/no pirates, the Vaulters lose one of their biggest advantages.  If the map is too large, and players are spawned great distances away, the UC in vision 1 would suffer drastically, as it might be a great many turns before another faction is encountered, and therefore open to "haunting" 


Additionally, what would their "favourite FIDSI" be?  To explain, all the current factions have some resource that they seem to favor/have an affinity for.  Horatio: Food, Riftborn: Industry, Sophons: Science, UE: Influence, etc.  Possibly it could be influence, but that is mostly used to direct negotiations, which seems to defeat the purpose of a stealth faction.

Updated 6 years ago.
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6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 2:13:40 AM

 have an idea on how to make vision 1 less passive.  These people predate the Endless right?  So perhaps they lack the affinity for dust that the Endless bestowed upon other factions (one way or another).  So their Haunts, on their own, have miserably low dust production (their capital must have normal dust production to compensate) but they can use the "traitors" to also subtly siphon dust off of enemy planets.  The enemy would not get a notification that they are being siphoned, they would just have to check up on their detailed breakdown of dust income and see that they are losing dust to "mysterious causes" or something like that.


As for vision 2, it doesn't need to be an "aggressive" playstyle, but it can be.  If the UC systems have a 1 turn production item that toggles them from a "virtual" to a "physical" system, then it allows the UC to expand unseen, but briefly appear to produce a fleet, then hide again.  Let's say that enemies can colonize on a "virtual" UC colony.  Similar to vision 1, the FIDSI of that system would be siphoned to the "virtual" colony, but it loses the ability to transform into a "physical" colony.  Therefore on smaller maps where an opponent is expanding rapidly, say a UE or a Riftborn, then the UC has the option to play defensively, by revealing themselves into a "physical" colony to stop enemy expansion.


I love the idea of the "virtual/physical" toggle, but my biggest issue with vision 2 is the player interface.  How will UC players choose who they disguise as, or will it be random?  Will UC vessels be disguised in the battle simulations?  That might prove difficult to implement, as the layout (and therefore capabilities) of UC vessels will no doubt differ from those they are trying to impersonate.  If the results of a battle are calculated by the simulation, then implementation of that idea might be impossible, but if the simulation just shows the results of the calculations, then its possible to make this happen.


Honestly, I'd prefer vision 2, just as long as we nix the whole idea about disguising.  The togglable hidden systems idea makes them sufficiently unique in terms of gameplay, but not so unique that they would be difficult to pick up and play.

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6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 2:47:59 AM

APOLOGY: Sorry of the spam of posts, I don't wanna make one post too long, and I'm just kinda stream-of-conscious-ing this right now.


My best idea is to combine the two visions.  Make them have a tall capital, but the ability to create toggleable systems between "virtual/physical."  But give them also "haunts"


To make this work, UC systems must have pretty weak dust production, and they must rely on their "haunts" to siphon dust off of other factions (and possibly minor factions?).  This turns them into a combination of EL's Cultists and Forgotten.  "Virtual" systems have less population slots than their "physical" counterparts, making them less efficient economically, but better tactically.  Virtual systems may be colonized by enemies and placed on already colonized enemy systems.  "Haunts" siphon FIDSI, and every turn there is a percentage chance that the afflicted player will receive a notification hinting that there is a haunt at the afflicted planet.  "Virtual" systems siphon only dust and no notification is given to the afflicted player (unless they check their detailed dust output and see they are losing dust to "mysterious causes")


This would make their standard gameplay proceed like this:  They start on their home system (possibly not connected to a constellation except for a wormhole node  that the UC can use from the start that leads to a single system)  They can play early game like most other factions, expanding by placing colonies that eventually turn into virtual colonies.  If the UC player is certain no enemy is nearby, they can toggle their innermost systems into physical systems to benefit from the extra population (or possibly a FIDSI boost) if an enemy scout is approaching, and the UC player wants to remain unseen, it can toggle those systems into virtual systems, rendering them invisible to the scouts.  When another faction is met, the UC player has options.  They could do nothing, or start placing haunts to boost their economy.  If the majority of their systems are virtual, then they might fall behind.  This makes a possible counter-UC tactic to be continuously scouting and not letting them have physical systems for long periods of time.  The UC player can get around this by placing haunts.  If another faction is close, the UC could opt to place a Virtual colony on an enemy system.  This allows the UC to build up a colony is secret.  By using force, the UC player can force another faction off of a system that already has a virtual colony.  This has the advantage of transforming this virtual colony into a physical colony, therefore granting the UC player the possibility to have a fully furnished forward base immediately after removing another player's colony.


In general, there are two dominant playstyles this works well for.  If players are used to a more aggressive style, they can play it that way, by placing Virtual colonies on enemy systems and attempting to snowball their opponent with a series of quick forward outposts.  Or, more uniquely and more suited to experienced players, the UC could play like a Venus Flytrap.  By not revealing oneself and allowing opponents to expand into one's territory, the UC player can lull their opponents into a false sense of security, only to swiftly snap on them when their attention is elsewhere and when they are least expecting it.  This setup gives the UC a low skill floor, but a high skill ceiling.

Updated 6 years ago.
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6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 9:03:56 AM

I really love the first idea and I m glad you decided in favour of it! Tactics to play factions tall is the one thing still missing in ES2 in my opinion. So I cannot wait to try out the new faction! :)

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6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 1:35:44 PM

first vision going to be soooo interesting, i cant wait!

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6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 1:41:57 PM

I personally like the idea of vision 1 more as I'd enjoy a more subtrafuge faction one that allows mind games etc like how the Mowgar and Forgotten worked in EL.


A few ideas I have had are:

1.have starting system dissconected to everyone and hidden so you would need to scout it with probes to find it and even then it wouldnt be obviouse that UC are there

2.have UC start with warp travel so they can get out of thier system

3.maybe have thier scout ships be invisible requireing a new detection building or something present to reveal them

4.maybe have thier fleets invisble as well unless they do some form of interaction but weaker than other empires equivilant ships so you would want to flank systems or ambush ships and weaker armadas this would allow for gaurilla tactics.

5.have a privateer esc function that allows you to hide your fleets as pirates much like the vaulters can do so no one knows if it is you or not

6.Be able to cause dissent on planets etc(rebbellions) and then mind control the rebels much like morgawr do with cats paw/dissent

7.Since they are ment to be aincent and hidden allow them to know the start locations of all empires like how the drakken/ameboa did this would allow them to plan where to send spies.

8.Maybe give them a higher cap on thier blockade bonus so that they can generate more income with thier hidden/disgused(privateers) to also add to thier subtrafuge and stealthy tall status.

9.To encourage tall play maybe give them a bunch of very strong buildings but massive expansion penalty like how the Ally function in EL

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6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 7:40:58 PM

The Disguise Approach could be fun, but very hard to play and, indeed, very agressive. The hidden approach looks easier to play and very "ghostly". I prefer this one.


But having one doesn't mean that nothing in the other may be intresting.^^

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6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 8:42:11 PM

When I read about "population merging" I thought that this would be an awesome idea for Tall playstyle for every faction, not just the UC. 


As I have said in my "making tall playstyle viable" thread, we do need more opportunities for empires to develop their systems. If all empires could merge their pops into bigger pops per system, food would finally be more useful and you could have a choice between sending your population away, or merging them and having bigger FIDSI because of % bonuses that way!

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