HappyHead wrote:
My concern is that having propaganda not be modified by approval may be too straightforward.

If propaganda is simply something to be produced, then production becomes a far to powerful of a fids focus in the mid to late game.

Players would just try to siphon off population from their enemies as often as possible by developing "propaganda chains" where they rig things, through clever planet management, in such a way were population from enemy planets get sucked all the way back to their innermost territories.

Conquer a drained planet with an army and extend the chain with your now higher population inner planet adding to unit production.

Production, then, would become far more powerful than it should be as, suddenly, it would become a way to cripple enemy infrastructure while bolstering your own.



Population fluctuation from propaganda is going to mess with approval just as it is. But, if approval is attached to the propaganda system by being put in front of it, then it serves as a counterbalance of sorts, limiting the usefulness of propaganda to those who already are focusing on population growth. The asymmetry of the new approval system makes this all the better as it adds challenge to being happier than your neighbors. The benefits that come with a high approval rating would have to be weighed against the ability to drain population from your enemies.

Maybe they can make Approval work as a defense against propaganda, something like Approval is defending against spies in EL: Shadows.



It think it could be a good idea deduce the Approval from propaganda efficiency. As a proposition (I know it's imbalanced): if propaganda is working at 100% you drain 1 pop per turn, if the system has a 50 Approval propaganda propaganda works at 50% and you steal 1 pop every two turns, with 70-80% App only 1 pop every 4-5 turns and with App 100% draining pop is impossible although you've got specific improvements/techs.



Of course this is about defending against propaganda from other empires. Not see a solution about propaganda from your own empire, as within your empire you'll be able to move pop easily.

Growth



Growth depends, as usual, on Food produced by the System (but some could maybe use something else…). This first stock is split between populations on the System. Each population “eats” this Food (Population Upkeep), in function of their numbers but also in function of the laws, their Traits, etc.

The rest of those stocks “Net Growth”, increases the Faction growth.

If a population’s Food Upkeep cost is higher than its own share, they start to lose population (the number of turns before population loss depends on the difference between the “Food Share” and the Upkeep cost).

The food share is the total of harvested food on the System per turn and split between all the factions living on the System according to the number of citizens.

So, for example: you have 2 Haroshems and 1 Sophon: Haroshems’ share will be 2/3 of Food and the Sophon’s one is 1/3 of the food.

Didn't think about it initially, but this growth system should be balanced carefully. What worries me is that a faction with greater growth potential, will increase its proportion into a system, receiving each time a greater fraction of stocked resources, and progressively increase their % into system/empire pop.

This could lead a player having a high % of pop which has ideologies against his/her strategy, and maybe some empires with little original pop remaining, being over passed by pop from other factions.



Yet to see the game, could you explain something more about how you're thinking to balance this point?

Or is you idea to use ti to increase game complexity and make players thought hard about this point?



Thanks!

HappyHead wrote:
That's fair. Looking it over, I kindof agree with you too.

What if the differences between Approval were just part of how effective propaganda was? It seems a little overpowered as it is to me. I would always just find a way to settle a planet on the outskirts of my territory, surrounded by enemy planets, and make non-stop propaganda to steal citizens, then raze it before it's captured and repeat.

Having happiness modify the effectiveness of propaganda feels like a much more straightforward, easier to understand way to handle it. It could even include traits or technologies that make the happiness modifier stronger.

HappyHead wrote:
Like, what if it's not a guarantee that making propaganda will result in stealing citizens, but having a higher happiness level raises the odds considerably... And, heck, if you wanted to add a tinge of realism to it, you could have making propaganda result in LOSING citizens if there is a happier planet in the propaganda sphere and your propaganda is against their ideology...

Actually... I really like that version... it's much simpler and integrates approval.

A random chance would be an option, but I feel it should be a "pseudorandom number" with the likelihood increasing each turn (and the tooltip providing you with the actual mean time to happen), since keeping it truly random can be very frustrating (As any Crusader Kings 2 player will tell you.)

I love the idea of it flowing in both directions, though, and that would work with either a chance or a point accumulation system.

HappyHead wrote:
I also really like the cravers being unaffected by propaganda. It fits them well, but now we have a sudden need for militarists that can join other planet's civilizations... I mean, you could always just add in an additional 2-3 militaristic minor factions to make up the difference, but that could be challenging.

The United Empire, the Sheredyn, and the Hissho come to mind. There may be new factions as well.

Multi-racial galactic empires: ALL OF MY YES!



A few things on the mechanics though:



Tying the strength of the propaganda to Industry is IMO too limiting.

It should be based on the total FIDSI of the system instead.



If a player has a weak industry, but wants to really focus on dust or science, having the propaganda power based on industry works against such gameplays. Total FIDSI would work much better in this regard.



Additionally, propaganda should have an additive effect upon itself, and an attrition against enemy propaganda.



Let's assume the base strength of propaganda is FIDSI.



Two neighboring empires are both racing towards science victory.



If two adjacent border systems both are doing propaganda to try to slitherly syphon Sophons from each other, the one with strongest FIDSI would subtract the weaker FIDSI from its value, and the final value would be teh ultimate migratory strength.



System A-I and System B-I would be the border systems in this 'propaganda attrition' scenario.



Now let me introduce the concept of a 'propaganda territory'. two systems mutually in range of each other's propaganda radius, or connected by a lane can compose a single 'propaganda territory' if both are making propaganda.



Rephrasing: If I Empire A picks a system A-II, adjacent to system A-I, and also instates it as a propaganda source, it would work as a propaganda system by itself. Being adjacent to A-I, they would work as a single 'propaganda territory'.



Systems in the same 'propaganda territory' do not syphon population from each other. Instead, they syphon population from the adjacent systems outside of it.

Each system inside the propaganda territory would contribute a % of its base strength to all other systems inside the same territory.

The incoming migratory population is distributed proportionally to the propaganda strength of each system.

As such each system has a 'base strength' propaganda stat, and a 'final strength' after it receives the bonuses from other systems in the same territory. The base strength is used to calculate migratory distribution, and the final strength calculate the outcome of the 'propaganda attrition'.

Magma wrote:
While I do think this system sounds very interesting, I don't think it fits the Cravers. It seems to me like any population that migrates to a Craver-controlled system from another empire would quickly be killed and eaten as soon as they stepped off the ship (On the other side of this, any Cravers to migrate to another empire would be quickly detained or killed due to either the threat of them attacking and trying to eat everyone else or just the native population's fear of them). I would recommend giving them some trait to reconcile this with the lore, like the previously suggested "Dinner" thing. However, even with this, it seems unlikely that a group of migrants would willingly travel to Craver space and offer themselves as food...



Also, dust-enhanced heroes aside, I find it unlikely that a Craver drone would abandon their empire to join another faction, as they aren't independently sentient. The conflicting political ideologies can make sense because of different opinions clashing within the hive mind or between the few sentient cravers like the bishops and queens, but entire populations of drones suddenly thinking independently and deciding to leave is kind of strange.

The Cravers are biomechanical, aren't they? Could it not be assumed that "propaganda" in this could also be represented as cyber-warfare? Alternatively, could it simply be a case of "overpowering" whatever node the planet is using to communicating with their home. Overwhelm it for just long enough to make it lose control of them.

Having approval modify propaganda feels much less straightforward to me than the other way around. It totally makes logical sense that people would want to live in "better", higer quality of life(Which is was approval represents if you look at the things modifying it) and that Propaganda may influence them to go somewhere despite it having the same, or even worse, approval.

Brazilian_Joe wrote:
Tying the strength of the propaganda to Industry is IMO too limiting.

It should be based on the total FIDSI of the system instead.

But then it'd be easy to exploit in low industry high sci/dust systems or it would have to take away everything like that late sophon conversion does for dust, which would make its opportunity cost even more high.

Sinnaj63 wrote:
Having approval modify propaganda feels much less straightforward to me than the other way around. It totally makes logical sense that people would want to live in "better", higer quality of life(Which is was approval represents if you look at the things modifying it) and that Propaganda may influence them to go somewhere despite it having the same, or even worse, approval.

My concern is that having propaganda not be modified by approval may be too straightforward.

If propaganda is simply something to be produced, then production becomes a far to powerful of a fids focus in the mid to late game.

Players would just try to siphon off population from their enemies as often as possible by developing "propaganda chains" where they rig things, through clever planet management, in such a way were population from enemy planets get sucked all the way back to their innermost territories.

Conquer a drained planet with an army and extend the chain with your now higher population inner planet adding to unit production.

Production, then, would become far more powerful than it should be as, suddenly, it would become a way to cripple enemy infrastructure while bolstering your own.



Population fluctuation from propaganda is going to mess with approval just as it is. But, if approval is attached to the propaganda system by being put in front of it, then it serves as a counterbalance of sorts, limiting the usefulness of propaganda to those who already are focusing on population growth. The asymmetry of the new approval system makes this all the better as it adds challenge to being happier than your neighbors. The benefits that come with a high approval rating would have to be weighed against the ability to drain population from your enemies.

Capture

If the player captures an Enemy’s System, like in the previous games, the player will obtain the Systems with the Improvement, the planets colonized etc. But, in Endless Space 2, they also receive the population. It is a simple way to add new factions (their bonus, political opinions…) in your Empire. From now on, they are able to migrate thanks to the Propaganda System in your Empire.

If they have a political ideology which is unknown to their Empire, the player will have to wait for its appearance in his Senate.

What about if we don't want them.Can we glass the planet.



Is the game set up to be favoured for multispecies empires or can a pure empire compete.

Sinnaj63 wrote:
Having approval modify propaganda feels much less straightforward to me than the other way around. It totally makes logical sense that people would want to live in "better", higer quality of life(Which is was approval represents if you look at the things modifying it) and that Propaganda may influence them to go somewhere despite it having the same, or even worse, approval.

Think of it this way: If you live in a space empire that needs engineers on two planets, one of them being a terran planet with great living conditions, the other a lava planet, but both put out the same propaganda, which one would you move to? The one where you'd be happier. Of course said empire probably wouldn't run propaganda for the terran planet in the first place, just as a player probably wouldn't if they really wanted more people on the lava planet.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
Think of it this way: If you live in a space empire that needs engineers on two planets, one of them being a terran planet with great living conditions, the other a lava planet, but both put out the same propaganda, which one would you move to? The one where you'd be happier. Of course said empire probably wouldn't run propaganda for the terran planet in the first place, just as a player probably wouldn't if they really wanted more people on the lava planet.

Well yeah, but people also wouldn't move to the lava one even if there was no propaganda on the terran unless the terran one was overpopulated and the lava one had infinite supermarkets.

Sinnaj63 wrote:
Well yeah, but people also wouldn't move to the lava one even if there was no propaganda on the terran unless the terran one was overpopulated and the lava one had infinite supermarkets.

The way I see it, nobody is considering moving to North Korea because of how great their supreme leader is. Your propaganda has to be at least plausible as well as appealing in the eyes of outsiders. The approval of your own population is a good starting point, outsiders being unhappy with their own home, however, is what seals the deal.

HappyHead wrote:
The way I see it, nobody is considering moving to North Korea because of how great their supreme leader is. Your propaganda has to be at least plausible as well as appealing in the eyes of outsiders. The approval of your own population is a good starting point, outsiders being unhappy with their own home, however, is what seals the deal.

Exactly. So, as I am saying, the difference in approval should affect migration just as much as propaganda and ideology.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
I agree that the Cravers should be unable to use propaganda or be affected by it.





As far as Happyhead's suggestion is concerned: While I agree that Approval would be an expected factor in migration, I do not want to buy a small amount of additional depth at the cost of a large amount of complexity. This particular suggestion, in my opinion, runs the risk of not creating a greater variety of options but making the system harder to understand.

That's fair. Looking it over, I kindof agree with you too.

What if the differences between Approval were just part of how effective propaganda was? It seems a little overpowered as it is to me. I would always just find a way to settle a planet on the outskirts of my territory, surrounded by enemy planets, and make non-stop propaganda to steal citizens, then raze it before it's captured and repeat.



Like, what if it's not a guarantee that making propaganda will result in stealing citizens, but having a higher happiness level raises the odds considerably... And, heck, if you wanted to add a tinge of realism to it, you could have making propaganda result in LOSING citizens if there is a happier planet in the propaganda sphere and your propaganda is against their ideology...

Actually... I really like that version... it's much simpler and integrates approval.



I also really like the cravers being unaffected by propaganda. It fits them well, but now we have a sudden need for militarists that can join other planet's civilizations... I mean, you could always just add in an additional 2-3 militaristic minor factions to make up the difference, but that could be challenging.

Hello! Some answers



Teslaflux :

For the moment it is not possible. If your system is within the propaganda’s radius, then it will be leeched. But we’re thinking about laws or technologies to make this feature more complete (and funnier ).



Ashbery76, Romeo and Magma:

I understand what you mean ^^ In terms of lore, propaganda works like a “state will”: Cravers would have a Science-specialized system, and give it only to Sophons population. But maybe it is just a trap?

It could be the contrary too: using Cravers in border systems as a protection (as “cannon fodder”).

But, you’re right. Maybe we need to think about the Cravers’ special feature and explain it better to the players. Maybe the first propagandas are not very efficient on the Cravers for example and attract only very specific individuals. And then a technology allows to use pheromones”. We need to talk about that, good remark



Keymaster:

Haha you can see Haroshems in the Gamescom video interview published by IGN (living with the Sophons ). And Teslaflux is right^^



Sinnaj63:

We tried to link the migration and approval system. As you say, it was logic. But it was difficult to track, impossible to stop the fluxes, give the feeling that the Factions were out of control. If they react to a lot of events, and differently, they could have very different opinions and it was uneasy to manage. The propaganda system is more simple but we’re still open to all your suggestions as usual



Scarab:

Maybe...



Garak:

Thanks (I’ve not seen the Illuminati side of the feature before xD)

You can “steal” population: if you leech a lot of growth (in function of your Industry) thanks to several systems around the targeted system. In the end, you can leech more growth than the system produces Food and consumes it.

About the Victory Conditions, indeed it could be. We’re working on this topic (Victories) but we are not so sure^^

You can “flip” the Enemy Systems thanks to Pacific Capture. Thanks to his influence zone, the player is able to “convert” a foreign system. But there is not a lot of control on it.



Cat-o-Nine-Tales:

Thanks for your comments

About Food and consumption: for now, the population eats the same resources and amount. But yes, we could find some “special eaters”, as you suggest

About the Political ideology: more or less, yes



About your Questions:

In order to keep it simple, the growth is stocked in the global-system-growth-gauge and in the Faction-growth-gauge. Each Faction stocks its food amount and the total of those gauges fills the first gauge. When the first gauge is filled, the Faction with the highest faction-gauge is increased. (That’s not simple to explain but for the moment it works well and you can make all your factions grow equally )

We’re thinking about that kind of laws. For example, laws which can work only if you have 1 Craver in your System (< That’s a fake example but it is for the mood )

Propaganda and migration should be moddable indeed

The colony ships: that’s a good idea but for the moment it is impossible (maybe we’ll think about a special technology for the late game?). We prefer be focus on the Propaganda System. If it works well it could be possible to add funny features.



Forced migration: another fun and good idea, but once again, even though we like it, it might not be possible yet. But we’ll think about it (and the super micromanagement it’s gonna bring xD)

The capture: honestly, I really wish I could answer but I can’t xD It’s a surprise but it probably depends on the Faction’s Nature.

Trade route: Haha we’re thinking about that too! It is still in progress for the moment ^^ We don’t know if it works ^^

Adapted faction: We’re thinking about that (again… are you a spy ? XD) but it will probably not affect the approval. Maybe…. Who knows?



Romeo:

All the Factions should provide a specific economic bonuses plus the ideologies. It could also have an impact on the quests ^^



Tainted:

If some very specific/fun/strange factions exist and can spawn, it will be probably a quest effect or an event’s one.

Minor Faction: As in Endless Legend, the quantity of Minor Factions will depend on the galaxy size

Special traits: for the moment, special traits are attached to a faction population and aren’t customizable.

Yes, the player can move the population in a same system from one planet to another. If you want you can have a planet full of Sophons and another full of Cravers (in order to optimize the natural FIDSI of the planets thanks to the special traits).



Remove a specific population: for the moment the only way to remove your annoying Cravers is if another player tries to leech it.

Yes, there will be laws/tech/agreement to modify the basic propaganda properties ^^

Answered (see Cat )

The Faction in G2G: I didn’t know it That’s fun to see that! xD



Lo_Fabre:

Yes, it works like that But it could be possible to start with a major population and an allied minor faction (maybe^^). It could be fun to start in a System where another civilization lives. (we’ve dreamt of Martians for years so that kind of coincidence could be surprising but fun!^^)

About Cravers: I cannot tell more about them, but we plan on revealing factions in detail very soon.



HappyHead:

Haha thanks I understand your point of view. But because happiness/approval reflected more the “stability” and the “coherence” of a System than population point of views, it seems weird to use propaganda to modify it. The migration is currently based on political ideology and not on happiness. When we’ve tested it, it was completely weird and quickly out of control^^ About changing the Psycho-traits: it could be dangerous. Removing stability could be confusing (as we already noticed when we tried the first version of the political system/migration). The rest of this system could be interesting indeed

Besides, I think using propaganda linked to the approval gauge is very interesting and could be a way to modify it (this System is in rebellion so I want to get out // the system is safe and secure so I want to stay). Maybe some government type could influence the propaganda effects and factors. Approval/happiness could be a good way (if the government is democratic for example) but this doesn’t make a lot of sense with a tyranny/dictatorship. But indeed it could be fun and interesting

I like your ideas They are interesting, we could surely test some of them ^^!



Lo_Fabre:

The ¾: if your planet is at least 70%-75% filled by population.

The psychological traits and reactions only affect the political opinion, not the approval ^^

I think it will not be so hard. Plus, you can use the luxuries to manage it on the long term. I think the player needs to be careful with the expansion in the middle and late game but that they should be able to manage easily the first maluses.

The propaganda radius: I’m working on it ^^ It could depend on the Galaxy Size^^



Brazilian_Joe:



It could the sum of all the FIDIS or 1 in particular, it could be interesting, maybe more than just Industry! I like this idea!

The Propaganda territory is not a bad idea, and it works more or less as the normal one. The main difference is that 2 adjacent systems, even if they are in the same territory, are leeching each other. All in all, it’s pretty interesting. I think it will be difficult for the player to define the territory. And the bigger your empire is, the more you can leech, which could be a big handicap if you’re bad at expansion. ^^



Ashbery:

It depends on your gameplay. For example if you play Sophons and try to win thanks to Science (if we have it as Victory Condition ^^) it is not very interesting for you to host Cravers. But if you also want to manage an efficient army (to defend your planet), it could be nice to attract some GMO bugs! ^^

We don’t want to force the player to do something, so hosting a lot of different population is not a “must”

Sinnaj and Cat: maybe living on Lava is very nice and comfortable…

Thank you for the detailed answers quaedam!

I can´t wait to read about the factions if you want to revael them soon.

quaedam wrote:
Hello! Some answers





Brazilian_Joe:



It could the sum of all the FIDIS or 1 in particular, it could be interesting, maybe more than just Industry! I like this idea!

The Propaganda territory is not a bad idea, and it works more or less as the normal one. The main difference is that 2 adjacent systems, even if they are in the same territory, are leeching each other. All in all, it’s pretty interesting. I think it will be difficult for the player to define the territory. And the bigger your empire is, the more you can leech, which could be a big handicap if you’re bad at expansion. ^^

My idea is that the same rules of reach for migration would be the same ones to define the propaganda territory. If the node is in propaganda range AND is owned AND also has propaganda active, both nodes are the same territory and don't leech from each other.

It could be that only the best FIDSI of all systems in the territory are the final strength of the whole territory, so that a recent, small outpost system in a border does not become a 'population sink' to the enemy. By placing it in a propaganda territory with at least one strong system, it's protected.



Maybe there could be different government policies to influence it:



If the 'media mogul' law is enacted, more systems with propaganda making a single territory would be (not too much, not too little) more effective. It should have a law of diminishing returns, where the second system gives only a small bonus to the strength, the third system an even smaller one, and so on.



Another law would be a 'state information monopoly' and could give increasing bonuses for a propaganda territory consisting of a single system, or make the capital's FIDSI the main propaganda strength, with the single propaganda system add a more significant bonus to it. With the drawback of only being able to have one propaganda active in the empire at a a time, but a guaranteed high strength (capital) and a good bonus on top of it, including a range bonus (2 system hops instead of one, double range)

quaedam wrote:


Cat-o-Nine-Tales:

Propaganda and migration should be moddable indeed

That's good to hear. I'm sure somebody will mod in approval as a factor to migration if it is moddable.

quaedam wrote:
The colony ships: that’s a good idea but for the moment it is impossible (maybe we’ll think about a special technology for the late game?). We prefer be focus on the Propaganda System. If it works well it could be possible to add funny features.

There are certainly players who will want that kind of micromanagement control, which is why I'd brought up the colony ships. If Colony ships had specific population and can be applied to already colonized planets, players who want to could micromanage, and those who don't wouldn't have to bother. Perhaps each faction would have their own colony ship show up in the construction options, with minor factions just using a generic ship model.

quaedam wrote:
(again… are you a spy ? XD)

My god, I'm getting so good at poking through your xml files that I no longer need the files.







Regarding the Lava planets:

Come to Regulus III! It's always warm and cozy here! Get free energy and never pay a heating bill again! Enjoy spectacular scenic view during your breaks! (Government not liable for loss of property or life due to volcanic eruption)

The propaganda mechanic seems very interesting. However, I think that it might be problematic for a player using a peaceful faction and going for a peaceful victory to use propaganda in the early-mid game to attract some militaristic population, as it might anger the militaristic neighbor and give him a reason to invade. Perhaps the Cravers aren't happy to the migration over to the Sophon empire.



What I'd like to propose is to have 1 or 2 sub-factions of your main race, unlockable through some optional quests, with different political ideologies and psychological traits. Using the Sophons as an example, while the main faction is Scientific and peaceful, the sub-faction could be scientific and militaristic. When applying propaganda to one of your systems, it would also convert your population from the main one to a sub-faction, if possible. So if you use scientific propaganda, it will do nothing, but if you use militaristic propaganda, it will convert your Sophons from the main faction to the militaristic sub-faction (say 1 pop per turn).

I think it might also be useful to have an option for nativist propaganda that acts as a localised 'close borders' order, effectively shutting off migration both ways. Breaking off diplomatic ties with a faction because of population leeching might not be worth it, but there should still be a counter for it besides attempting to leech the other faction's population (which might mess up your FIDS or ideology)

Hoping subjugated minor factions will offer unique technologies or space ships (or maybe even ground troops, if ground battle is included? eeh? eeeeeeh? XD)

Luring wrote:
Hoping subjugated minor factions will offer unique technologies or space ships (or maybe even ground troops, if ground battle is included? eeh? eeeeeeh? XD)

Wouldn't count on the Ground Troops thing, unless it's just an icon. But unique ships would absolutely make my day.