You're pessimistic, yes.

What they want (I guess) are layers of choices.

So it's not 1 chifoumi, but 2 best out of 3. How can you optimise to win 100% chifoumi ? You can't ?

You can be right with guns, your opponent may out-wit you with cards. And you would have to be clever with, say, fighters / bombers if it's a chifoumi system too, to win the edge of this war (for ~ even strenght fleets, I'm not talking about one explorer ship vs a titan).

What I would want is a perfect chifoumi on guns, so the conditions for cards which are a second layer can be evaluated. I don't like today's "never ever ever EVER fit a missile on a boat, it's the worse choice you can do in any scenario".

Why ? Because lasers are better in any scenario, and have flexibility to be used in medium range. So Missiles are out.

Now, if you consider Beam, they loose to Laser in most scenarios again, since they does S100 then 0. With laser, just jump long, then have 2 phases of 100% damage and one of 25%, tanking 100% of beam then. In the end, you delivered 200% of laser before the beam shot. If he's not dead, he would win if it can do more than 2.25x your dps in one close phase.

It is not doing this : Beam vs Laser LMS scenario is B: 11.65 / second vs L: 16.49 / second. The Beam ship took 586 damage before it can do 1 damage to the laser ship, and that's with T1 weapons.

With Kinetic, it's a little more complicated than this.

If the gun chifoumi is unbalanced enough so the cards's bonus doesn't matter, then Amplitude would have a problem to throw fighters in the mix.

Mysterarts wrote:

Hi,

About critical hit: there is currently a bug that prevents the effect (x2 damage), sorry for the inconvenience.

The current critical numbers are also temporary.

You will be happy to know that in the update 2 preview version (available on steam), we changed the matches to have the following table:

		Short			Medium			Long
	1	2	3	1	2	3	1	2	3
Short	Short	Short	Short	Medium	Short	Short	Long	Medium	Short
Medium	Medium	Short	Short	Medium	Medium	Medium	Long	Medium	Medium
Long	Long	Medium	Short	Long	Medium	Medium	Long	Long	Long

Long range is no longer the main range.  Medium is now the most frequent range. 

But long range weapons are useful when placed in an unmatched flotilla and have the "first to shoot" advantage. 

And short range weapons will be a bit more powerful in the update 2 official version.

Moreover, we agree with your feedback about more differences between weapon types.

Don't want to ask something silly, but can you explain exactly what colours mean?

As I understand, this table is the range at where flotillas are fighting in each battle phase depending on your card choice and its implied range for each flotilla. Not sure about colours meaning.

EDIT:

Sorry, just seen it: short=red, orange=medium, long=yellow

Can someone reminds me cooldown, damage and crit of beams ? I'm using an Excell sheet now and I forgot those :/

edit: nvm.

After pure DPS considerations, I think I identified another problem.

Shield penetration & hull penetration are :

K : 0.8 / 0.3 => total 110% of damage *problem*

B : 0.1 / 0.9 => total 100% of damage

M : 0.9 / 0.1 => total 100% of damage

L : 0.3 / 0.8 => total 110% of damage *problem*

The two line spotted as problems are because those are allready the two weapons that makes the more damage. This is in favour of OPAL again.

I'd recommend making K 0.8/0.2 and L 0.2/0.8.

I reworked a little with my Excell sheet, it seems that:

- there is no errors in the numbers I calculated. The formula used may be incorrect though.

- the adjusting recomandations are working somehow (just change the crit K to 13%), but I need to make a proper thing about this.

I'm trying to mod stuff. I don't know if this will work. I'm also hesitant to mod because of non-working crit.

Ok, so in approach any 1v1 ship will alway shoot with one gun ?

If target choose Long and I choose Medium, it's LMM.

During the Long phase, my flank guns are only firing once ?

This is changing all my numbers

There is an additional sideeffect with missiles in a sense that :

- they can be shooted (I've verified this in the Battle simulation yet). I'm not sure the game reflect this risk.

- as high alphashot shells, they have a problem when switching target :

==> if a missile make 100 damage and fast rof weapon makes 10, then when blowing a ship, the missile can blow the ship because he made 1HP to 100HP to the target.

So it "miss" there is a mean of 49.5 HP then overkill the target, and those are lost.

- last thing, if a missile is flying to a target, then shoot a second missile, then the first missile lands on target and destroys it, mean lost damage is 75% of it's dps :/

For high ROF damage 10, this is 4.5, it's a lot less... If they do 200HP, then by killing stuff, they and to do 195 or 185 HP with this last fly time issue ? (vs 50)

I understand the shield/hull penetration more like a +10% given to those 0.3/0.8 // 0.8/0.3 guns, so I nerfed those after I made calculations (those 10% are in damage outputs).

I work on implementing the crit now and I have a theorical solution (link). I have to redo all my stuff but I'd love ending finding the same numbers ;)

The thing is you have a slot based fitting system.

AKA : protecting against something always nerf your dps (if you use a support slot, then you could have a boost damage slot) but would help you to shoot a longer time "maybe".

So this would be ok to isolate means of defense rather than guns for this (less dps is also less defense, since your opponent will fire a longer time).

---

For the record, in EVE there was many ways to tank incoming stuff :

The main ones :

- active tank shield : aka boosting shield with absorb damage & repair shield modules. Adapted for ganging (pirate) / roaming (police) / PVE.

- (active) tank armor : aka boosting armor with repair modules & absorb damage. Adapted for ganging (pirate) / roaming (police) / PVE.

- tank speed : aka trying to make the opponent miss you (I was a huge fan of this). Adapted for ganking (pirate preying) or shiprole: intercept, tackle & support.

- tank buffer HP : aka just trying to put the more HP on your shield/armor/structure and then just pray. Adapted for fleet combat because it's just a matter of seconds you stay on the battle ground once you're primary-ed.

A little more rare but still:

- passive tank shield : aka boosting shield natural regen with huge shield buffers so they regen more HP (it's %). Adapted to everything but I'm not sure if this was not nerfed when I left the game in 2010.

- tank web : aka support ships repairs you.

Rare tanks:

- tank DPS : aka do not care about tank, only care about your dps trying to shoot the other before you. This "all or nothing" can work for small encounters (I saw this 1-megatron guy shooting half of the 8 of us with this, forcing us to retreat. And we retried, and lost again.).

- tank structure : aka just a pun, this doesn't work. When you start loosing structure then it's a matter of seconds before you're an egg. Still, it's funny to do since the opponent may be surprised that you don't loose in 5 seconds but 12.

There may some pratices I forgot or I don't know about.

If getting more dps outweights countering the "main enemy dps" you'll end up with only picking more dps in the end (ES1 situation) 

Honestly, call me pessimistic, I'm rather certain the whole thing will devolve into using the most statistically efficient combo. Adding more and more variables to the mix won't really change that. If ships spend on everage more most time on short you'll pick up short weapons, or vice versa. If you find out which combination of regen/armor is more efficient slot use, you won't have to pick anything else. And with comparable hulls and weapons types across factions, I don't envision something interesting to toy with beyond the first couple domination campaigns...

EDIT : I want to add that I appreciate both your efforts and Amplitude's into balancing the whole systeme and making each module useworthy. But I can't shake the feeling the whole thing won't be interesting in the long run. There are too many things missing because of the way movement and "terrain" works in this game.

Ok.

tl;dr : OPAL are still the king.

So, I will be using data in weapon's xml ((YOUR DRIVE):\SteamLibrary\SteamApps\common\Endless Space 2\Public\Simulation\Battles\SimulationDescriptors[ModuleWeapon].xml).

I choosed to use a recalculated dps, to ease things with weapon cooldowns. I'm multiplying the number by 100 so it's more easy to read.

By concentrating on dps, this make the calculations independant from the number of seconds in phase (I could not produce a fight long enough with my current game, and "who cares" if I'm not balancing HP here).

I'm ignoring the last phase flight time effect aswell.

I'm considering crit to be working, with x2 damage.

I look only lvl 1 non-ressource guns here.

Exemple

Kinetic lvl 1 : dps x100 is (11 damage / 1.7 cooldown) * (1 + 0.05 crit) * 100.

This last factor of 1.05 seems strange, but it works like this : 95% of the time, dps is normal, 5% of the time dps is doubled. So it shoots 105% of the time = 1.05.

And then I multiply by 100 to use big numbers (rounded nearest).

---

DPS

---

For a reason, I couldn't find the evasion stat of the ships. So let's assume displayed tooltips shows % of damage applied to a ship.

Numbers are given in a S / M / L format.

Kinetic (base 679) - Efficiency 100% / 75% / 50% - Resolved damage 679 / 509 / 339

Beam (base 1165) - Efficiency 100% / 0% / 0% - Resolved damage 1165 / 0 / 0

Laser (base 733) - Efficiency 25% / 100% / 100% - Resolved damage 183 / 733 / 733

Missile (base 700) - Efficiency 0% / 75% / 100% - Resolved damage 0 / 525 / 700

------

RANGES (aka gosh, I need an excell sheet)

------

WBS = "Will be short". Meaning you fitted a ship with short weapons and will be use short range no matter what.

OS means the opponent choose Short.

The following is the table given very kindly by Mysterarts, with the addition of parenthesis. Those parenthesis means your ship is approaching the other one, meaning both flank guns will fire.

I make an approximation here, by considering flank guns shoot twice in approach, then after approach phase, make a stupid instant 90° turn and shoot by flank. The game may be more precise than this.

WBS

OS : SSS - [Flank K: 2037, B: 3495, L: 549, M: 0] [Non-flank K: 2037, B: 3495, L: 549, M: 0] (for Kinetics K, SSS means 3xS damage)

OM : (M)SS - [Flank K: 2376, B: 2330, L: 1832, M: 1050] [Non-flank K: 1867, B: 2330, L: 1099, M: 525] (for Kinetics K, (M)SS means MMSS damage for flanks, and MSS damage for non flank)

OL : (L)(M)S - [Flank K: 2375, B: 1165, L: 3115, M: 2450] [Non-flank K: 1527, B: 1165, L: 1649, M: 1225]

Conclusion for short range:

Best flank short weapon : #1 B (6990), #2 K (6788), #3 L (5496), #4 M (3500)

Best non-flank short weapon : #1 B (6990), #2 K (5431), #3 L (3297), #4 M (1750)

WBM

OS : MSS - [Flank K: 1867, B: 2330, L: 1099, M: 525] [Non-flank K: 1867, B: 2330, L: 1099, M: 525]

OM : MMM - [Flank K: 1527, B: 0, L: 2199, M: 1575] [Non-flank K: 1527, B: 0, L: 2199, M: 1575]

OL : (L)MM - [Flank K: 1696, B: 0, L: 2932, M: 2450] [Non-flank K: 1357, B: 0, L: 2199, M: 1750]

Conclusion for medium range:

Best flank medium weapon : #1 L (6230), #2 K (5090), #3 M (4550), #4 B (2330)

Best non-flank medium weapon : #1 L (5497), #2 K (4751), #3 M (3850), #4 B (2330)

WBL

OS : LMS - [Flank K: 1527, B: 1165, L: 1649, M: 1225] [Non-flank K: 1527, B: 1165, L: 1649, M: 1225]

OM : LMM - [Flank K: 1357, B: 0, L: 2199, M: 1750] [Non-flank K: 1357, B: 0, L: 2199, M: 1750]

OL : LLL - [Flank K: 1017, B: 0, L: 2199, M: 2100] [Non-flank K: 1017, B: 0, L: 2199, M: 2100]

Conclusion for long range:

Best flank & non-flank long weapon : #1 L (6047), #2 M (5075), #3 K (3901), #4 B (1165)

----------

CONCLUSION (aka now let's hope now all numbers were correct)

----------

"Best" theorical weapon is now Beam WBS. Short range bypass long range almost totally and delivers #1 damage by far on 1, 2 or 3 rounds.

#2 best weapon is Laser WTM and WTL something like -15% damage after this.

BUT

Beam WTS vs Laser WTL is laser win (1165 vs 1649), Beam WTS vs Laser WTM is Beam win (2330 vs 1099) so the laser is in control here. He will always choose long vs beam, delivering more damage and enduring less shots.

Kinetics's ranges are short & medium.

Kinetic WTS vs Laser WTL is 2375/1527 vs 1649 so Kinetic wins by flanks guns and Kinetic WTS vs Laser WTM is 2376/1867 vs 1099 so Kinetics wins again.

Kinetic WTM vs Laser WTL is 1696/1357 vs 2199 so Laser wins and Kinetic WTM vs Laser WTM is 1527 vs 2199 so Laser wins again.

Meaning that Kinetic will always choose short vs Laser, but Laser will choose long range. Laser wants to find kinetic protection the most.

So, OPAL lasers are still the king of the hill (imho).

Now, what I would do to balance this is adjusting the ranges efficiencies and some dps.

I would have to put all this in an excell sheet, maybe finding good approximation for trajectories and give something like:

(SML format)

Kinetic : 100 / 75 / 25, no change to range but +3% to dps (to be on par with missiles & laser)

Beam : 100 / 25 / 0, a small boost to range that will help to approach.

Missile : 25 / 75 / 100, range change & keep same dps but nerf their cooldown and boost their damage (huge long alphashot is welcome)

Laser : 25 / 100 / 75, long range nerf by -25.

I would have to redo all calculations but I think this would work.

Personnaly, maybe EVE and other games formatted me but I can imagine Beam being a long range weapon more than a short range weapon. I don't remember ES's lore though.

Fighters and bombers are just another weapon/defense pair. This is not like, say, battlefleet gothic where guessing where a ship was headed made whole categories of weapons useless or formidable. 

I understand your concern about the balancing the base stats. About the card, my concern is that most often there will be one evident card to play based on your fleet composition vs theirs. Unless playing a "less efficient" card suddently counters the best statwise. 

I think my issue is that I'm worried a very different layer of warfare in the game, and it's not the good topic for this. 

uriak wrote:

About the card, my concern is that most often there will be one evident card to play based on your fleet composition vs theirs. Unless playing a "less efficient" card suddently counters the best statwise.

This thing is another chifoumi :)

But it should lay on a balanced layer or else any subsequent chifoumi decision would cancel the first. In the end, only the last, the one that matters, would be important.

Total War are chifoumi layers like this. Once you understand an opponent's deployment system and how you can manipulate it, you win lots of battles, including "unwinnable" battles. Most, if not all wargames, are weighted chifoumis.

Watch for "Les Inconnus - La guerre mondiale dans le monde: La planisphère" on youtube :)

You still choose cav flanking so where is the problem ? It's not a matter of numbers of clicks, is it ?

In my case, in Shogun it was throw cav way behind the army while fixing the opponent's army with two dummy archer unit.

Then full katana (80% of the army) charge.

Then throw the yelling monk in the melee.

Then try to coordinate cav charge from behind with monk yell.

Then kill the rest with the gen and the guarding pike unit.

This trap is a garanty win (made me #100 in world ladder when the game came out), I have way more insecurity in an atomic chifoumi system than with this.

Ok, I made an Excell sheet, and if I'm not mistaken, Beams are now super hyper giga OP.

At its best range collection (you choose Short), one Beam is just as good as 2 Kinetic gun when they choose short + 2 Missiles when they choose long + 2 Laser when they choose long.

This is for the first tier of guns.

Weapons.xlsx

This means one small tier 1 beamboat have to tank at worse vs long laser 526.24 damage (aka +1 x shield) before doing 1817.64 aka killing a small thing and its shield then a medium thing and its shield.
Projectile weapons are oog atm.

This is because Beam are 0-0-100. All damage is concentrated in its late phase, so dps is never wasted in long or medium phase. I will propose a mod again tomorrow.

Don't forget a few beam ships might blow up before they get a chance to fire. Because of that, short range damage is worth less than long range - so it needs to be scaled up some. Maybe use weighing factors?

And don't forget that beams can't fire cross-flotillas.

Hi,

About critical hit: there is currently a bug that prevents the effect (x2 damage), sorry for the inconvenience.

The current critical numbers are also temporary.

You will be happy to know that in the update 2 preview version (available on steam), we changed the matches to have the following table:

Long range is no longer the main range.  Medium is now the most frequent range. 

But long range weapons are useful when placed in an unmatched flotilla and have the "first to shoot" advantage. 

And short range weapons will be a bit more powerful in the update 2 official version.

Moreover, we agree with your feedback about more differences between weapon types.