Hey everyone!

First of all, we wanted to thank you for the game's reception. We are super happy to see you playing and enjoying the game.
We have been quite busy the past weeks reading all your feedback on the different platforms (and fixing some elements that aren´t working as intended).

Some of you have expressed that the game should improve the rogue-lite aspect/replayability. We agree and from our perspective, the game should offer more variety between runs.

The team has already been working on improving these aspects of the game since release but would like to use this thread as a point of discussion with you, to share how you feel about that and how you think it should be improved.

Here are a couple of questions in the air so they can serve as inspiration, but do not hesitate to add anything you think is relevant:

• What will make you play more runs? 
• Is there a specific area or element that you would like to be expanded/improved (weapons, variety of upgrades, unique modifiers, etc)?

• What in the meta progression should be improved/added to motivate doing more runs?

To help the team understand your perspective, it would be nice if you could briefly tell us about your gaming habits your experiences with rogue-lites (and if you played DotE in the past).

Have a nice weekend :)

Hey, loving the game so far!

As far as meta progression, I think more weapons, weapon upgrades, and more hero mod chips that really change the hero more than a +/- to a stat.

Some of these chips sort of exist already, off the top of my head I am thinking of Cartie's bug killer mod.

I think if there was a deeper hero mod system for us to really customize and build the hero in different ways for each run it would add to the replayability.

Also as someone who played DotE, I do miss an Endless mode where we can just try and see how far we can make it.

As far as modifiers to the game itself? Maybe some mini bosses that have a chance to randonly spawn on any floor or sector?

Some current games I am playing a lot:
-Darktide

-League of Legends

-Endless Space 2

-Barotrauma
-Lethal Company

-Guild Wars 2



PS. Bring back melee weapon characters <3 

Good day,

In terms of things that could be done to improve the replayability of the game.

-Well the first thing that comes to mind is a random route setup. One where the player doesn't get a choice with what district they go to. Makes it a mystery which boss they will face and what enemies they will largely encounter along the way.

-Endless mode I would add to the conversation as well. I think it would have to be added with the random route setup I was mentioning above. So you are facing different enemies randomly as you go.

-I also do think that having the same final boss to the game does become a bit repetitive. This one i know is a tough ask/suggestion. But maybe different forms of Eriaudy could be at the end instead of the same one. Ones that are resistant to different elements/weapon types and appearance of Eriaudy would change as a result (sort of like Eevee in pokemon).

-More characters to find and unlock along the way. Similar to Dote here. Might be something already on the planning floor. But having a larger character pool to draw on and maybe having heros that you can rescue and escort through the game to unlock would be something fun. Sort of a Escort the VIP situation. Which is also another suggestion for a game mode VIP escort. You get a party of 3 and 2 of the characters have weapons and the 3rd one doesn't and they must survive to the end along with the crystal bot to win. Further details could be flushed out. But that general idea.


I could keep rambling off different ideas. But ill leave it there.

Have a good one,

Tyco

Seconding both the random option: for districts, perhaps also for enemies? Kind of like the current beverage that makes the generators stronger but remove the option to choose which one: forcing us to adapt to what's happening in the run, with less predictability for what's coming next...
And also: the "alternate builds" for heroes. Having the possibility to choose different chips both in saloon & during runs is good, but currently each hero really has one personal "build" and a few generic upgrades, and having more deliberate upgrade routes to pick and choose from there, would be just as good as having entirely new characters, imo.

I'd also like more quests myself, maybe shorter than the heroes' questlines, but involving a whole specific team or any hero but different specific conditions? Small self-contained "stories" anyway, that would make the run unique (or even just *repeatable* at will, closer then to the beverages system but involving lore rather than just action gameplay).

I don't know if it really counts, but I personally like the "random encounter" aspects of the band in the saloon, and the holopup (the only "secret" I've seen so far, maybe there's more I've yet to discover? :D ) that makes a fun surprise twist once in a while. Unexpected stuff in a run is always a plus for me, even if it's entirely cosmetic.

Please add more characters.  All of the other characters in the saloon, from the singer to the lady in the wheelchair, should be considered.  

Add more random events or even rare weapons that operate different from standard weapons to a run to have a run different from prior runs.  A rare weapon would be something like the fire weapon that normally attacks in a close circle around you instead attacks in a larger circle at increased range or even sends out ranged bursts in a 360 digree pattern.  These weapons would only last for the run.  They would not carry over to previous runs to increase the diversity of runs. 

I love the game, super fun. A major improvement to me would be more features to upgrade/unlock for weapons/saloon/characters. There hits a point when you have more scrap and currency than items to use them on. The chests for scrap at the start of each run are a great example of something to be expanded upon, maybe specific ones or multiples for purchase if you have the scrap. 

Additionally I'm a huge lore guy, the current in-game stuff is fantastic and I'd be excited to get more of it. Destiny and the lore through grimoire cards or gaining it through raids/challenges was a great way to keep me invested. 

I've been on a rogue-lite kick for a while. Currently playing Have a Nice Death, also a fan of Hades. Risk of Rain 2 is by far my favorite, again plenty of lore through challenges. Incorporating the random-esque stat and power cards could be a great addition. RoR2 and Vampire Survivors suffer from an issue with power scaling, after a certain point you're the almighty god of death and destruction and the games lose a bit of fun/replayability without something to challenge you.

Played DotE a bit. I enjoy good tower defense games and I felt like it put a nice unique touch with the FIDS system intermingled with party management. 

So far I've played everything but the first Endless Space, big fan and thanks for the hours of entertainment. Can't wait to see what comes next. 

I've loved the game so far and I'm so glad you guys are looking at the community for getting some more ideas for it!

Personally I would lean towards adjusting the things that can happen during individual runs through changing up enemies/bosses and adding in new ones. It could be by having multiple enemies of a certain "type" like having multiple Praetorian level enemies, with only one showing up in a run, or it could be done by having subtypes of enemies who have special abilities (this could work like minibosses or they could replace/be in conjunction with Elites). If this was done then while you would know the idea of what enemies you are going to find (Bots in this case), but it might be a red colored Razor with a short range flamethrower instead of missiles, or a purple colored Razor that summons trap effects like Red Dead Eye. Essentially shake ups that will change how an enemy will fight, or maybe even changes to how they work, but they will still be the same thing. The enemies in the game right now are pretty great, but their aren't too many of them and so you learn how to combat them quickly, spawning even just one "special elite" that works different every once and a while (maybe one each wave?) could add some variety in encounters.

New enemies would be great too, and they could serve as a different way to add differences in runs. Maybe there could be 7-8 total units in each faction, with only 5 being present in each run. By themselves this adds some variety in runs, but without a larger scale bestiary it might feel unnecessary. Maybe having something were you get an extra couple sentences about the creature or from a character talking about an enemy could act as another thing for players to strive to collect (The Hunter's Journal from Hollow Knight could be a great reference for what I'm talking about here, despite it being a wholly different genre the concept should work here well).

Others have already mentioned it, but some more characters to unlock or play as would be fantastic, especially if they offer new ways to play the game (such as a melee character, or one who uses abilities for most of their damage rather than guns). The characters in this game are all great, I love their voice acting and their personalities, but with all of them being in one of two major groups (1 or 2 handed gun) quite a few of them look like trade offs of each other (even though many of them play decently differently).

An endless mode that lets you pick between two zones at random could be a ton of fun, perhaps it could be structured normal zone, boss zone, repeat like it is currently still but with randomly chosen floors and bosses. This could be with a warning of what types of enemies to expect on a floor or it could be hidden and you would have to figure it out as you go along.

More things to spend scrap on other than chests would be one of my biggest wishes, as once you buy all the upgrades for the bar there isn't much to do other than buy the starting chest for each run. This could just be more cosmetic things, like a new room to the bar (perhaps as a way to lead into more characters), or it could be more concrete things, like new guns for future runs or improving the odds of certain guns appearing next run.

Thanks again for making such a great game and have a great day!

I think the game is really fun however as a solo player I think one easy fix to make the game a little better is to simply allow all the characters use their abilities by themselves. EX: Blaze doesn't set his traps if I am playing another character, and I'd rather have traps randomly all around then have him on my team and not place any traps at all. Also maybe a way to have the characters use their ults with a hot key instead of needing to switch between them, this way I can get heals or AoE whilst still on the character I enjoy more. (Maybe I'm missing something that already does this but these small problems are real turn-offs for me)

As for additions I think the legendary weapons should have unique intrinsic perks for just that run. EX: The campfire getting another outer ring of fire, or spawns random food drops on kill to heal any character that walks into it. These perks would only come with the weapons being legendary or a new even higher rarity to encourage unique runs. Also could add a new shop/vendor that allows you to change the unique perks out of a set pool for each or even all weapons, or have an option to choose what perk you would get for reach weapon before the run, if you got lucky enough for the legendary to drop, separately form the base perks. 

I also think the lore and collectables should be more rewarding, either giving skins or some other unlockable items. Or add a new currency to unlock even more new skins. 

Hi, loving to see you guys open for feedback.

The main thing that make me play more runs and return to roguelites I like is being able to be creative by making meaningful choices. And usually I think this comes from two factors:


-Surprising and multiple challenges.
-Various tools and choices to adapt to those challenges. By “tools” I mean things that enable strategies.

The challenge I think is balancing this:

-If there aren’t surprising challenges, I can always play the same way every run, so I don’t need to make meaningful choices, and the runs will feel the same.

-If there are surprising challenges, but, they can all be dealt in the same way. I can always have an easy choice, and easy choices don’t feel meaningful. So the runs feel the same again.

-If there are surprising challenges, they can’t be dealt in the same way, but I don't have enough tools to adapt (or if I have to face all challenges at once) the game gets frustrating in the bad way, since my choices are always very bad (90% of turrets right now).

-If there are a lot of tools to adapt to different challenges, but not enough ways to filter those tools, I feel like I’m totally dependent on luck and picking whatever appears in front of me, so I am not even choosing. (I’m always opening every door on the floor)

-But if there are too many ways to filter and acquire those tools, I can just pick the easy choices again and again, and the runs feel boring. (example, let's say you could reroll the research for free until you get what you want)

I think the main problem with the game right now is that I don’t have to make any meaningful choice to beat it. The challenges are not surprising and multiple enough. I know exactly what I’ll face every run, and the little that I don’t know, I’m sure it’s not relevant enough for me to change my strat.
Not that I really could change my strat, because choosing one tool - like weapons, research, turrets, the vendor, level ups, characters, my starting point and route and even my playstyle - over another is rarely a meaningful choice. Either because the tools are very similar in regard to the problems they can solve (that arent many in first place), or because one tool is clearly the best tool to deal with almost every possible problem (long range acid turret, I’m looking at you, bro). 

I don't think that every choice has to be a hard choice, it also feels good getting lucky and receiving an easy choice, but, right now, every choice is either an easy choice or not a choice at all. There is no risk/reward in-run besides going for a bot upgrade on a very bad spot. Out of the run there are only chips to choose over another, and very few of them are gameplay changing.

Gaming habits: I play almost daily. Today I mostly play roguelites. I'm playing Ravenswatch, Boneraiser Minions and, well, Endless Dungeon, But I always replay Curse of the dead gods, Hades and Dote. I have a weakspot for isometric games, real time strategy and mobas too.

I do think its worth having a look at how curse of the dead gods deals with risky/reward overall; how Heroes of the storm (and ravenswatch) have fun mission talents you have to get early game to have a power spike mid-late game and how they build synergy between talents; How Hades deals with unlocking stuff and furnitures for your lobby/saloon and how those unlocks affects the runs. Also would take a look on Hades "heat" system, their boss modifiers and late game difficulty that doesnt rely exclusively on stats. I can post more about it along with some ideas I shared on the steam foruns already.

I always try to make a brief post, always fails xD

have a nice week!

A daily and maybe weekly missions for scraps or something. I'm currently sitting on 50k scrap and there's nothing to really spend it on. Would love another vendor of some with different goods to buy. 

Gun skins locked behind 3 more objectives For each character only obtainable by doing objectives with that character.

Ahoy there!
I'm loving my time with the game and I've been playing often with and without friends which has been a blast getting to play a game like this with friends!
As for my background I play games every day near enough as it's my main hobby so I've played my share of roguelike games Slay the Spire, Skul The Hero Slayer, Risk of Rain 2 and Hades are probably my favourites (I have not played DotE). Variety is my main criticism, chasing specific gameplay is what keeps me hooked on roguelikes. Once I feel as though I've seen all the gameplay I will be more likely to move on to another game.

• Cell Upgrades need to be more impactful and  thematic: Some of this is already well done with things like Cartie's "Exterminator" or "Robotics Expert" trait, the better they evoke the character's personality and vibes the more I will attach myself to the specific build. A flat bonus to a stat can be rather boring, I want the upgrades to be "felt" kind of how in a game such as Risk of Rain 2 or Skul your character can start with different abilities and this might change the kinds of items you will want to pick up during your run. As cells aren't quite as impactful as a whole new active ability they need to really help the hero lean into something they want to do with an effect that you can't get anywhere else really. I want to feel good about picking my hero's build before I go into the run, knowing that I now get to do something that only this hero can do in the way that I'm doing it.

• Weapons: Up top I want to say I think the guns in this game all feel excellent, they already all feel unique and interesting to fire. spending a cell to get +10% damage isn't all that interesting but if the choice was between shoot two extra projectiles in a spread pattern or stack 10% attacks speed per kill up to 10x suddenly I'm excited to pick one and I'm making a meaningful choice that can spice up my future runs.
  On another note for a good roguelike there needs to be some weird or even OP items you're always on the lookout for, low drop rates endless rarity weapons but if you find it you'll be hyped. Slay the Spire and Risk of Rain 2 do this really well. When that rare card or item drops that can completely define your run it's the best feeling in a roguelike. Give them names of people who have been lost to the station like a six-shooter revolver which always fires all 6 shots rapidly, bares the name of one of Blaze's posse (one ain't four but it ain't bad!). It's a great way to go all out with adding interesting new weapons to the game with wild effects. 

• On X effects:  Really simple this one but having more hero cells, devices, weapons and upgrades "proc" things upon doing certain actions. Anything from standing still, per hit, on kill, when taking damage, when building a turret, when opening a door etc etc etc. This just opens sooooo many points for synergy!

• Meta progression:  As I said before chasing gameplay keeps me playing a roguelike so I think adding more beverage challenges would be a great way to let us alter the run to feel fresh. Something I love are the special waves they're so fun and I would love a beverage that makes them happen all the time. In general though the more we can unlock things that change the future runs the better. Although this last point may be getting very very wishlist-y, new unlockable active and ultimate abilities for the heroes would really add some flavour. I can already see Bunker getting a charge that pushes everything out of the way as she dashes creating a path for everyone to get through a huge wave or Fassi chugging a concoction that makes him breath fire! Just things to spice it up and stop every run with a hero feeling similar. 

Thank you for making this incredible game. You made something really really fun here and I'm excited to see where it goes. If you sat through all that thank you and please go treat yourself to a refreshing beverage!

In terms of replayability, here's a few things that come to mind right away:

1. Massively increase the roster and allow for a larger team size so TED has the same scale as DotE's roster/teams.  Bonus points for adding discovery of team members over the course of a run.
2. Remove the elemental weakness system.  Yes, that's probably a controversial statement, but the elemental system severely limits player choice.  You could instead replace it with an elemental affix system like in many other roguelites, and I think that would encourage more exploration of different turret types and affix synergies.  (If you're looking for an example, Dead Cells does a really nice job with their elemental affix system.)
3. Do something about the limited range of turrets.  Many turrets are a terrible choice simply because they don't have enough range to effectively clear enemies.  This is particularly frustrating to DotE players who are used to turrets covering an entire room.
4. If possible, somehow bring back the power management/enemy spawn mechanic of DotE.  A lot of people are complaining about that being removed, and it added a lot of depth to the strategy.
5. Take the RNG out of the level-up system and instead have more clearly-defined character progression.
6. Make the items more meaningful and unique.  This will probably involve removing the downsides from many of the items.
7. Add more modes/pods like in DotE.

I already posted here, but I wished to give more clear examples of what I said previously https://community.amplitude-studios.com/amplitude-studios/endless-dungeon/forums/203-general/threads/55310-improving-replayability-of-endless-dungeon?page=1#post-376439 also I divided it into more posts cause I struggle a lot at being brief and simple, sorry btw

Weapons (tools):

I really miss mechanics that change the way you play in a sense that it needs me to do more than simply shooting mindlessly until the wave ends. I think part of the boredoom and low variability feeling comes from here. I would love to see something like a heat gauge in some weapons, the more you shoot, higher the dmg or fire rate, if it gets too hot, it starts damaging you over time. It can cool down by stopping shooting or by shoving an enemy or a turret. So you are rewarded for playing riskier. You have synergy with healer characters and healing passives. Heated weapons have improved shove dmg (since its like, super super hot) or a special effect, like criting with the weapons element or adding a high wit value to a turret.

I would love to see something like a higher range flamethrower that deals no dmg to monsters, but buffs allies and turrets in its arc, so it is still challenging (and rewarding) to use it.

-Skill tree for weapons could be awesome to give them unique feelings from one another too, while also having more universal modifiers chips to install in said skilltrees could help a lot with building synergy

-different shove attacks and interaction for each weapon, like adding "+%dmg to turrets from same element and +%def to turrets from different ones" in a pistol; "knockback and explodes (after 1 second) enemy hit by shove atack" on another pistol; enchanting a maximum of 2 monsters to fight for you; applying elemental crit effects on shove; make turrets focus on shoved enemy target; make you char invisible or untargetable by monsters for some seconds; transform elemental damage type for some seconds on a neutral turret; gives a ton of defense according to wit to a turret and make it taunt enemies; or sacrifice a turret to explode and deal area damage if it breaks in the next few seconds... and so on

Having "during run" progression or/and meta progression (saloon) missions for guns could be really really cool. They could maybe be a special mission chip you can choose at the saloon, buy at a special vendor during runs or in chests (since chests and looting are ultra ultra boring). This would require to be able to install chips in weapons during runs too or having more "trinket" (the passive equipable from vendor) and chips, idk. These "during run" mission could be:

-straight foward mission (low risk, low reward): kill x enemies with this gun to gain +x% dmg with it. -> Personally I dont like this kinda mission, and think they are better for small meta progressions, but better than nothing.

-penalty at start mission (medium risk, high reward): Halves the weapon %dmg. After dealing x crit shots with this gun, you gain [20% critchance, 20% defense and 20% firerate] for heroes (or turrets) in the room. -> So it might be a bad decision to get this as your main dmg dealer, but can be a very good option for the support, I love this kind of tradeoffs that better define your build

-wear after use missions (high risk, low instant reward, high delayed reward): install this chip to get +100% dmg on the gun and -100% defense. Every time you kill an enemy with the gun this chip is installed on, you gain 3 food. After 10kills this chip is destroyed. If you character gets lower than 10% hp, the chip is also destroyed -> So, it can have a low value in the short term, but you get rid of the penalty fast and get some resource. OR you can risk holding it for a boss or a hard wave, at the cost of potentialy dying and getting no reward from it and having one less weapon available, since you are holding it for a better moment. A better moment when 30 food might no be that helpful anymore. Think of this as a grenade that gives resource.

-another way to do the above idea, Glass Cannon: Weapon with 5 bullets that breakes after use. Weapon deal +200% damage. Gives 30 resource when destroyed. If user gets below 70% hp weapon is destroyed and gives no resource. -> this could be and endless weapon

-mechanich changing mission: do something. After completed, weapon has 50% less fire speed, but shoots 2 additional bullets. This could be cool with the "+150% dmg if 2 seconds without shooting" thing. Could be even cooler with a "every 1 second without shooting gives +10%critchance on next shot and on every damage dealt 1.5 seconds after it"

Another thing could be elemental and status reactions, a thing that I believe coould help A LOT with "trash" turrets viability and adress part of the low weapon variability problem while also helping create synergy in the game. Like burning over poisoning do something, or piercing a slowed enemy do another thing. Divinity Original Sin 2 has some cool ideas. Genshin Impact (god forbid) too.

The weapons that actually feel unique are the flamethrower and the ligh arch pulse, but they both feel high risky and super low reward to use. They could have some numbers adjusted, cause the light arch really feels like could one shot things, but I think, more importantly, that they lack synergy with other stuff that still doenst exist, like element reactions, to actually feel rewarding to use. Especificaly to the light arch, I would rather if it charged and only shot when I released the button, so, in top of that, it had some "while being charged" effect. Like pulling small enemies to its "magnetic" arc. Or, while being charged, enemies hit by the charging arc area gives +%critchance and move speed to the user. So it feels cool to cross a wave with the weapon and then release it right in the middle of it. Imagine then having a "knockback on hit" modifier and a "dmg when enemy hit structure after knockbacked" trinket. It would be even cooler to dive in the wave, even if super risky. Those are the kinda of fun synergies this game lacks severely and is normaly expected from roguelikes.

Turrets (tools):

Could borrow some of the ideas for weapons above. Could also have a similar system to the one weapons have in the saloon. Chips that we could install not only to buff turrets, but to modify how they work. Things like:

-adds a heat gauge modifier to the turret, similar to the weapon idea above. When overheated it deals dmg to itself, or explodes dealing dmg area, or stops working. It can cooldown by being shoved or beying attacked by melee enemies while dealing return damage.

-turret has 100% critchance, but deals 90% reduced crit damage. So, the turret work as an elemental crit effect applier. Either a CC turret or a damage over time turret.

-special shove effects could really help make both weapons and turrets shine. These could be a passive for the turrets in the saloon OR being a shove effect from the weapons, as said earlier.

TL,DR: I think most of the boredoom of weapons comes to how we use them mechanicaly. Charged weapons, "shotguns", "snipers", miniguns. They are used the same. Hold the fire button til wave ends. What could be really helpfull here is adding new mechanics, like a heat gauge and missions that either change the way we use the gun to complete it or change the way we use it as a reward. Also modifiers chips/skilltree and having many more shove effects, as well as reactions between multiple elements and status on enemies.

Hi everyone, as a game designer working on improving ED, just a quick note to let you know that this thread so far is clearly gathering the type of feedback we were looking for. This really helps us, even today, to fuel our internal reflections, and in the right directions. Thanks for that!

Kaboomer wrote:

Hi everyone, as a game designer working on improving ED, just a quick note to let you know that this thread so far is clearly gathering the type of feedback we were looking for. This really helps us, even today, to fuel our internal reflections, and in the right directions. Thanks for that!

Good to hear!