DevildogFF wrote:

carolean7 wrote:

Thus, the highest voted submissions aren't correlated with being the best submissions, but rather just the ones that are steadily kept at the top of the list by the authors and/or their friends. The other dominant sorting method is by Most Popular, but this heavily promotes the early submitters who gathered the early votes to make the top of the list, until people only reading the top few entries on the page ensure that "the rich get richer".

I don't really like the insinuation here. Is mine the top because "I have friends"? I've only replied to people who have commented on my OP. I've not done anything to artificially bump my thread. I have two friends that have supported my idea, but that's what friends are for, no?

Well you're in luck. I wasn't insinuating you. I was insinuating EndlessCrashes, who is with us as a founder of this thread, and openly admitted above that he self-bummed his thread, campaigned on the G2G forums, & Steam, and chatted with the top G2G score members in order to artificially boost his score to prove how the system is unfair and easily manipulated. He's cool. You cool. We cool?

However, I don't believe that the top entries are only there because they've kept themselves at the top of the list. I do, however, believe that entering early helped me as before I even came back to check on my entry a day later, it had almost reached 100k already. The rest probably came as a snowball effect.

Here you say you disagree with our point, and then immediately state exactly what our point is and agree with it. So not sure about that. This "snowball effect" is exactly what our point is. So again we agree I suppose? Anyway, glad you're on our side. Great submission idea BTW!

Devildog, I tried to take care in addressing this issue without looking like we were attacking you.  I didnt want this to turn into a flame war just cuz you were one of the first entries, maybe the first, and were the prime example of the flaws with early voting.  I was keeping track of our vote scores most of the time, and by the 14th you already had 300k in votes and I only had 50k.  On the 17th you had gone up by 50k+, and by the 20th you had gained over 100k+ more.  Each day after that you have gained another 50k+ and even though I have managed to stay close in the gains, I am still about 200k less than you.  You have been at the top since day one and the "vote early/vote often" mindset doesnt help to upset the slant.  But we meant no ill will toward you personally, just to the new system.

The snowball effect was certainly working in your benefit, and I'm positive you didn't actively take advantage of the system to exploit it.  I did everything I could to try and get votes, and still could not surpass you.  It is true I self-bumped my thread, campaigned on the G2G & Steam, and chatted with the top G2G score members to gain exposure.  But my campaign was run on giving people a choice, I only said to vote for me if they liked my post, and I was also spreading the word about the early voting problems.  And perhaps when I did get to second place it gave me a bit of the snowball effect as well.  

Anyway, I hope the AmpliCrew can find a better solution when this part of the contest is up tomorrow.  Good luck to you and everyone!

Frostieknight wrote:
I want to voice my appreciation that this thread is so civil. I relate to the concerns expressed, but when I saw this post I was extremely worried- I expected this, as an earlier commenter put it, to be "a minefield". And then it just wasn't.
Thank you, Amplitude. You make good games, because you care. (Trite as that sentence is).
Thank you, everyone else on this forum. You offer constructive feedback, because you genuinely want things to be better.

In fact, I was quite worried too at the beginning : it was carolean7's idea to create a new thread, while my idea was to use The Weatherkind as a flagbearer during the second step of the contest (it would have been more centralized, and so would have limited the number of comments). Don't get me wrong, I trust the community, but I've always been very pessimistic and quite prudent when dealing with people.

At the end, carolean7 and I worked on the first entry (but it has been approved by everyone) but we wanted to "put the tone" quickly after : this is why the first comments posted by MasterAqil, EndlessCrashes, Talross and carolean7 were so (much more) important. I thank them for the quality of their comments, and I also thank everyone on this thread for their civil attitude and the time you spend on proposing constructive and argumented ideas.

Joke time - At the moment I write these lines, this thread is third in popularity : maybe we should create a new faction named "The Concerned Ones" ;)

PANCZASU wrote:

Let me start by saying that I'm very cautious when criticising these kind of contests. Last time in EL I was criticised for expressing my dissatisfaction with the way the contest was hold and accused of "just being mad because my suggestion fell from 3rd place". This time I never was in the top 3 position though so maybe the situation won't repeat.

I agree with the overall sentiment of this thread. In my eyes the current system is too open to abuse, encourages bandwagoning and puts contestants in a very unfair environment. However I believe amplitude when they say that they had to rush the contest in order to make the community faction on time. That is not an excuse mind you, if a community faction was planned from the start, more work should've been put into preparing this contest. Nevertheless I understand where Amplitude is coming from and, while I do feel really disappointed, I don't necessarily blame them. But I was hoping for more since we had a similar situation last time.

The saddest thing is that I wasn't even able to check each of the submissions. I really wanted to, there's plenty of hidden gems but the timing of this contest was really bad for me *cough*gamescom*cough*. Again, I understand that there were time constraints that forced Amplitude to start this event and to finish it quickly. But the voting period and submission period should really be separate. At least, there should be some extra time for voting; it's veeery hard to catch up on every entry when they just keep being added. It's also surprisingly demotivating, though that might just be me.

Plenty of suggestions to improve the system have been posted, some from myself as well. I don't think I need to repeat any. Hidden scores, randomised entry view, 1-sentence summary of each submission as well as a list of each submission are all a must in the future.

Lastly, I want to add something that hopefully should be obvious - this post isn't aimed at any of the current top 3 submissions. I mean, regardless of the fair factor, they're all solid entries on their own, there's no shame in losing to them  I'm only criticising the system itself.

At first I thought I would also have time to go through every entry and leave a reasonably long comment. But boy was I wrong, I just do not have that sort of time as more and more entries were thrown down.

Thankfully its been rather civil here and its good that no one has kicked up a huge fuss. Its good that we are in agreement and I do hope Amplitude comes to a compromise while not sacrafticing too much time to do so.

In any case, I want to play Endless Space 2 solo and online with folk like yourself, much like I used to years back when the original ES came out.

Btw, Jealous of your VIP badge.

DevildogFF wrote:

EndlessCrashes wrote:

Devildog, I tried to take care in addressing this issue without looking like we were attacking you.  I didnt want this to turn into a flame war just cuz you were one of the first entries, maybe the first, and were the prime example of the flaws with early voting.  I was keeping track of our vote scores most of the time, and by the 14th you already had 300k in votes and I only had 50k.  On the 17th you had gone up by 50k+, and by the 20th you had gained over 100k+ more.  Each day after that you have gained another 50k+ and even though I have managed to stay close in the gains, I am still about 200k less than you.  You have been at the top since day one and the "vote early/vote often" mindset doesnt help to upset the slant.  But we meant no ill will toward you personally, just to the new system.

The snowball effect was certainly working in your benefit, and I'm positive you didn't actively take advantage of the system to exploit it.  I did everything I could to try and get votes, and still could not surpass you.  It is true I self-bumped my thread, campaigned on the G2G & Steam, and chatted with the top G2G score members to gain exposure.  But my campaign was run on giving people a choice, I only said to vote for me if they liked my post, and I was also spreading the word about the early voting problems.  And perhaps when I did get to second place it gave me a bit of the snowball effect as well.  

Anyway, I hope the AmpliCrew can find a better solution when this part of the contest is up tomorrow.  Good luck to you and everyone!

Don't feel like I was attacked at all. I personally have no idea why my submission gained as much traction as it did. All I did was tell my friends about it and post in another forum about it. I'd like to think that people just want to play as sentient trees, but I also believe that the system worked in my favor, too. 

I was about the tenth submission, so that *had* to help. 

Good luck to you, too. Whoever wins, I'm happy, as I think the top 5 or 6 are all great ideas.

Oh yeah. I just found the steam group and facebook page that you promoted The Unfallen on. Smart idea to increase visibility. That's 2,300+ members in those groups, and translating into lots of extra views.

carolean7 wrote:

DevildogFF wrote:

EndlessCrashes wrote:

Devildog, I tried to take care in addressing this issue without looking like we were attacking you.  I didnt want this to turn into a flame war just cuz you were one of the first entries, maybe the first, and were the prime example of the flaws with early voting.  I was keeping track of our vote scores most of the time, and by the 14th you already had 300k in votes and I only had 50k.  On the 17th you had gone up by 50k+, and by the 20th you had gained over 100k+ more.  Each day after that you have gained another 50k+ and even though I have managed to stay close in the gains, I am still about 200k less than you.  You have been at the top since day one and the "vote early/vote often" mindset doesnt help to upset the slant.  But we meant no ill will toward you personally, just to the new system.

The snowball effect was certainly working in your benefit, and I'm positive you didn't actively take advantage of the system to exploit it.  I did everything I could to try and get votes, and still could not surpass you.  It is true I self-bumped my thread, campaigned on the G2G & Steam, and chatted with the top G2G score members to gain exposure.  But my campaign was run on giving people a choice, I only said to vote for me if they liked my post, and I was also spreading the word about the early voting problems.  And perhaps when I did get to second place it gave me a bit of the snowball effect as well.  

Anyway, I hope the AmpliCrew can find a better solution when this part of the contest is up tomorrow.  Good luck to you and everyone!

Don't feel like I was attacked at all. I personally have no idea why my submission gained as much traction as it did. All I did was tell my friends about it and post in another forum about it. I'd like to think that people just want to play as sentient trees, but I also believe that the system worked in my favor, too. 

I was about the tenth submission, so that *had* to help. 

Good luck to you, too. Whoever wins, I'm happy, as I think the top 5 or 6 are all great ideas.

Oh yeah. I just found the steam group and facebook page that you promoted The Unfallen on. Smart idea to increase visibility. That's 2,300+ members in those groups, and translating into lots of extra views.

Thats why the parameters of the contest is rather... unfortunate. 

Perhaps worse is that I think only a fraction of those people you informed about the Unfallen have not went and looked at other submissions and voted outside of that post.

Friends? What, i had like 3 close friends I told. In relation to forum post, its a group of like 2k people. Thats more than an average forum post that would be viewed.

Digitalhawk96 wrote:

carolean7 wrote:

DevildogFF wrote:
Don't feel like I was attacked at all. I personally have no idea why my submission gained as much traction as it did. All I did was tell my friends about it and post in another forum about it. I'd like to think that people just want to play as sentient trees, but I also believe that the system worked in my favor, too.

I was about the tenth submission, so that *had* to help. 

Good luck to you, too. Whoever wins, I'm happy, as I think the top 5 or 6 are all great ideas.

Oh yeah. I just found the steam group and facebook page that you promoted The Unfallen on. Smart idea to increase visibility. That's 2,300+ members in those groups, and translating into lots of extra views.

Thats why the parameters of the contest is rather... unfortunate. 

Perhaps worse is that I think only a fraction of those people you informed about the Unfallen have not went and looked at other submissions and voted outside of that post.

Friends? What, i had like 3 close friends I told. In relation to forum post, its a group of like 2k people. Thats more than an average forum post that would be viewed.

It's unfortunate, but it's also the nature of such contests. It's impossible to perfectly balance a contest's openness with a sense of fairness. Despite some flaws, this contest is still honestly one of the best implementations of any online community contests I've ever seen. So huge props to Amplitude! You guys are paving the way and doing it splendidly and with an open mind!

Is this outside promotion unfair to the underdog? Perhaps yes. But I'm going to defend this being an OK tactic. It's free publicity for a game we love, and overall it grows the community. There is no way to ban this, and it shouldn't be banned. Reaching out to communities outside the G2G forums should be encouraged, not discouraged. At this point some of us may feel that the devs should invent various restrictions to voting rights: must be registered for X days, must have a G2G score of above X, must read X submissions before casting a vote, etc... Sure these may seem like great ideas on paper, but they are not the answer. I stress my opinion, aimed at no one in particular: such rules are a BAD idea. It'll just become an arms race between self-promotion and top-down regulation, overall resulting in a highly regulated and fake community. I applaud Amplitude for avoiding such steps and keeping everything open.

I suppose the only way to counter this, is to reach out to outside communities ourselves. This spreads the word about a game we love, and frees up the Amplicrew to focus on their real job: making awesome games. I posted the links of DevilDogs outside sources not to accuse him/her, but rather to share with everyone the tools we all have access to. My regret is that I didn't discover the sites until 1 hour before the close of the contest, so that everyone could have had an open playing field days ago. Oh well...

That's my 2 cents anyway. Feel the love.  

carolean7 wrote:

Digitalhawk96 wrote:

carolean7 wrote:

DevildogFF wrote:
Don't feel like I was attacked at all. I personally have no idea why my submission gained as much traction as it did. All I did was tell my friends about it and post in another forum about it. I'd like to think that people just want to play as sentient trees, but I also believe that the system worked in my favor, too.

I was about the tenth submission, so that *had* to help. 

Good luck to you, too. Whoever wins, I'm happy, as I think the top 5 or 6 are all great ideas.

Oh yeah. I just found the steam group and facebook page that you promoted The Unfallen on. Smart idea to increase visibility. That's 2,300+ members in those groups, and translating into lots of extra views.

Thats why the parameters of the contest is rather... unfortunate. 

Perhaps worse is that I think only a fraction of those people went and looked at other submissions and voted outside of that post.

Also, I'm sorry but I cannot respect that you have essentially lied to us with; "I personally have no idea why my submission gained as much traction as it did. All I did was tell my friends about it and post in another forum about it."

Friends? What, i had like 3 close friends I told. You have a following of 2k people that you told.

It's unfortunate, but it's also the nature of such contests. It's impossible to perfectly balance a contest's openness with a sense of fairness. Despite some flaws, this contest is still honestly one of the best implementations of any online community contests I've ever seen. It's just really, really, really difficult to achieve perfection. So huge props to Amplitude! You guys are paving the way and doing it splendidly and with an open mind!

Is this outside promotion unfair to the underdog? Perhaps yes. But I'll defend this being an OK tactic. It's free publicity for a game we love, and overall it grows the community. There is no way to ban this, and it shouldn't be banned. Reaching out to communities outside the small G2G forums should be encouraged, not discouraged. At this point some of us may believe that the devs should invent various restrictions to voting rights: must be registered for X days, must have a G2G score of above X, must read X submissions before casting a vote, can't communicate with other members if you have an active submission, etc... Sure these may seem like great ideas on paper, but they are not the answer. I stress my opinion, aimed at no one in particular: such regulations are a BAD idea. It'll just become an arms race between self-promotion and regulation, overall resulting in a highly regulated fake community. I applaud Amplitude for avoiding such steps.

I suppose the only way to counter this, is to reach out to outside communities yourself. This spreads the word about a game we love, frees up the Amplicrew to focus on their real job: making awesome games, and all-in-all isn't actually that much effort on our part.

That's my 2 cents anyway. Feel the love.  

I guess what I should add is that it would be different for a normal G2G vote where promoting people to check it out leads people to a G2G vote page with choices and hidden votes, due to the nature of the volume of submissions, promoting yourself outside on a group isnt illegal but it is very advantageous. 

Also, I had to edit my original post because it came across as too ragey when I read it again when... I really wasn't. I don't feel that way at all in regards to DevilDog.

I really don't mind the spreading of the word about the contest and Amplitude, I think that is good, but I think the biggest blunder is to allow us to vote during the first creation stage; its ended up creating... "Endless" problems

Later submissions will get no respect while the first get all of the respect, popular factions stay popular from when they were concieved at the beginning.

It really is a question of how to sort through 170+ submissions and narrowing it down to a few good ones. Do the top 10 people have some of the best ideas out of the rest? Ofc, otherwise we would not have got votes to begin with. What i really think is that narrowing it down to 3 right now is unreasonable due to the nature of how many submissions actually came in.