So, I recently got back into Endless Space 2 after a long hiatus, and the lore is every bit as great as I remember it. I'm slowly working my way towards finishing a playthrough of every major faction (starting with my old flames the Cravers), and something occured to me. One thing the Endless Space universe lacks are real villains.

Lemme qualify that statement. I realize I opened the thread by mentioning the Cravers, and they are the most antagonistic faction by far- but even they aren't particularly malicious. They do what they do for two reasons: because they're programmed to, and because they're hungry. That's it. They were built to be so rapacious that they'll literally strip whole planets of life and starve if they don't persist in expanding (absent Endless level agricultural technology anyways).

But apart from them, who else actually qualifies as a genuinely villainous faction or race? Horatio is a decent contender, he wants to exterminate all sentient life and replace them with clones of himself. But he's... well he's too unhinged to be particularly sinister. He's not a sadist, he's just nursing the mother of all inferiority complexes. After him, who comes to mind? The Lumeris & The United Empire are certainly morally ambiguous, but most of their shadier dealings and conflicts are directed inwards.

It seems like the niche of card carrying "bad guys" is left vacant. And this might just be because I'm one of those jerks who roots for the bad guys in a story more often then not, but it would nice if there was *one* faction at least that did terrible things not because circumstances force them to, but because they just plain enjoy doing them.

You've literally missed villains in the series title.

Regarding the Endless: they were/are a fractious race who tore themselves apart because of an ideological rift. Again, morally ambiguous =/= villainous. Besides which, they're unplayable and impossible to interact with outside a handful of heroes and faction quests.

Regarding the Vodyani: they became what they are because they were going to go extinct absent virtual artifacts. What came after is just religious impetus, they're motivated by zealous fervor, not malice.

And sociopath isn't the right term (nevermind the fact that no serious psychologist has used the term sociopath in 40 odd years). What I want are a faction that unapologetically does villainous things that they aren't obligated to do for any practical reason (like say the Pirate League)- or failing that a faction that does outright *horrifying* things compulsively (IE: xenomorphs).

Also note I said *faction*, not playable race. I'd settle for a minor race.

(And for the record I don't recognize the canonicity of any ALIEN movies outside the first two. :P)

But but but... People have been complaining for ages that villains were so two-dimensional and now we are back to wanting two-dimensional baddies?  I really don't understand people anymore. I'm moving to Mars.

"at least you'd have been happy."

Well, yeah. I literally opened the thread by saying as much- way to crack the code.

As for people complaining about it on the forums, 2 things:

1) This being the internet, someone is going to complain about literally anything anyone does.

2) Anyone who demands that every faction have some high-falutin justification for their actions has a lengthy list of them to choose from already.

As for the two-dimensional claim, 2 more things:

1) A number of factions are already decidedly two-dimensional. The Sophons can be summed up with the words "science dude", and the Vaulters can be summed up thusly "bravery, science & Endless Legend references".

2) The first example of an overtly malicious character provided in this thread was *Hannibal Lector*- who we all know is a flat, dull, uninteresting character who hasn't stood the test of time... oh wait.

I've already covered the difference between moral ambiguity and villainy a number of times now, but I've still got a couple sticking points to go over.

Regarding the Umbral Choir: Imane Kryv. The only example of a sleeper we get to learn about in detail shows that they're not just mindless puppets- and other lore tidbits we get indicate that they still remember their past lives. They don't get mind raped and pressganged into service, they just get convinced the Choir is a better option than whatever empire they used to be part of. It's basically just a much more hands on version of peacefully converting a system- which also comes with the fringe benefit of becoming a fusion dance style hybrid being.

Regarding ENFER: that was an accident, and they literally spend their entire faction quest trying to fix the problem they caused. Ultron's short lived existence doesn't make Tony Stark or Bruce Banner villains. :P

Regarding Horatio: apart from everything else, he and the empire he started are too prissy to be taken seriously as villains. Seriously, the Lost Horatio quest lets you know exactly how evil they are an empire. Yeah Horatio himself is a megalomaniac, but he's also the fussiest conehead in the cosmos.

And c'mon, calling any military action genuine villainy is a bit of a stretch. If aggressively expanding your territory and borders when you get the chance makes you evil than every civilization in the history of history are mustache twirling Snidely Whiplash tier bad guys.


Here's the TL;DR of my gripe in a nutshell: I get that every faction can *do* things that're pretty dastardly if you make them- IE: building an obliterator and snuffing an entire star system of populated worlds like a candle. And if you view any hostile or military action from the ground level POV of whatever civilization is on the receiving end it's pretty grim to imagine. I just wish that there was *one* and I do mean just *one* faction that's *characterized* as villainous in the lore. That's all. It really doesn't strike me as a big ask considering how many civilizations are overtly characterized as virtuous- The Umbral Choir (they just want to help), The Unfallen (also just want to help), The Sophons (they abhor violence and just want to learn), The Vaulters (who are so virtuous it's almost nauseating)...

Again, doesn't even have to be a playable race. I'd settle for a single minor civilization- hell, I'd take an *individual* entity- maybe a John Carpenter's "The Thing" style hostile being that rolls from system to system causing havoc. Would make a fun focal point for a cooperative quest come to think of it- a bit like the lovecraftian monstrosity that comes out of the sea in Endless Legend (assuming you grabbed the Tempest DLC).

Allow me to paraphrase a Simpsons quote to help illustrate why I figure there needs to be at least *one* entity or faction of the sort I describe in setting:

"Well [aliens] are a lot like people. Sometimes they behave badly because they've had a hard life, or been mistreated- and like people some of them are just... jerks."

For me, that it doesn't logically follow after that quote that there needs to be a jerk faction. I understand what you're saying despite reacting sarcastically earlier. My argument is that given the way EL and ES2 were written (faction quests and all), without a proper motivation behind every faction it would be difficult, I believe, for many people to stand behind those factions, not to mention it would have been more difficult to write a compelling story for them too. "Oh, the Bablooxians are just evil for the sake of it. The end." But in the end you are the player, you can always turn off faction quests and be a jerk to everyone in your game.

I remember back in the day players criticized the KotOR games for their dark side role-playing choices. You could either be a saint or a jerk with no nuances. So personally I am happy that this is not the case in the games I played recently. (Reapers in Mass Effect, Zerg in Starcraft, even Chaos, Tyranids and Necrons in W40k are more nuanced evil rather than straight out evil)

I'll try repeating this one more time in the hopes it sinks in:

If no less than *four* factions can be inherently good or decidedly two-dimensional in lore, why would *one* being bad somehow destroy the fabric of the Endless universe and ruin any sense of immersion?

Why would *one* minor faction or *individual agent* shatter the fanbase's expectations and result in a flavor text civil war?

And again, the list of compelling stories about malevolent and bad tempered character is exhaustively long, so the "you can't tell a good story about a villain" shtick falls flat on its face if you think about it for longer than 10 seconds.

(Also for someone keen to dismiss a criticism or request on the basis that it's a personal one you're pretty quick to cite your own preferences in defense of your standpoint.)

Four? Even Unfallen, admitedly the least villainous faction in ES2 does end up killing (fire that renew) those that do not wish to adhere to their ideals which I woudln't consider good. I don't think any faction in the endlessverse is actually good, most are only trying to survive or force their ways onto others, but there plenty of bad factions like the Endless, who genocided a whole race and fucked up the galaxy with their civil conflict or the Vodyanis would don't hesitate to enslave other population to extract essence out of them.